I have sympathy for suadade because I can. What are the alternatives antipathy and apathy?
What they sign shouldn't mean dick. These kids are mislead all the way up to signing, there is very little veracity involved in getting them to join, so why should truth or honor or your word be of any importance to them when they try to get out.
the good news
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Tommy Martyn
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The thing about the army is you take the oath and you take the money and you take the consequences. Having come from a poor background myself and done just that I know what I am talking about.
Back in the day under Thatcher, youth unemployment in Liverpool was running about the 86% mark. I actually got turned down by Burger King for a job. So I joined, as did my brother and four of my cousins. (One of whom had his jeep blown out from under him in Ireland.) We all knew what we were getting into. Frankly, if you joined the army not knowing that it was a dangerous job then you really are a fucking retard. Likewise, if you make your career decisions based around the graphics in a thirty second spot in the middle of a football game. This has nothing to do with the education system either. Believe me,not everyone in England is a genius and there is a lot about the state education system that needs fixing.
Soldiers don't make policy, politicians do. The army doesn't get to say which things it will fight for and which things it won't. Do I need to add, for a very good reason.
One thing I will say about the American military, is that compared to other nations it treats it's people well. It is far and away the least racially prejudiced segment of the american workplace. I don't know of any other military that has anything approaching the generosity of the G.I. Bill benefits. (Perhaps someone could enlighten me here though.)
Back in the day under Thatcher, youth unemployment in Liverpool was running about the 86% mark. I actually got turned down by Burger King for a job. So I joined, as did my brother and four of my cousins. (One of whom had his jeep blown out from under him in Ireland.) We all knew what we were getting into. Frankly, if you joined the army not knowing that it was a dangerous job then you really are a fucking retard. Likewise, if you make your career decisions based around the graphics in a thirty second spot in the middle of a football game. This has nothing to do with the education system either. Believe me,not everyone in England is a genius and there is a lot about the state education system that needs fixing.
Soldiers don't make policy, politicians do. The army doesn't get to say which things it will fight for and which things it won't. Do I need to add, for a very good reason.
One thing I will say about the American military, is that compared to other nations it treats it's people well. It is far and away the least racially prejudiced segment of the american workplace. I don't know of any other military that has anything approaching the generosity of the G.I. Bill benefits. (Perhaps someone could enlighten me here though.)
Very powerful letter by Mr. Goff, but it doesnt change any facts. As Tommy says, you sign the paper, you take the rewards and the consequences.
There have been several times in my life that I considered joining the armed forces. There is a part of me that would do well in such an environment. But each time I seriously considered it, people who know and love me forced me to look closer at who I am and at what I was about to do, and helped me realize that there is a larger part of me that would not do at all well in a situation where I had little or no autonomy over my own destiny.
I am the type of person who doesn't take orders well, especially if I don't agree with them. All of the people who post here are free thinkers, creative, passionate, and compassionate. Not everyone is this way. We cannot expect everyone to think the way we do. Many are prepared to take the risks joining the military entails without consideration, because their lives are then handed to them, and unfortunately, sometimes their deaths are too.
As Sgt. Goff says, the experiences of war change a person. There is no doubt of that. His opinions have obviously changes over the years understandably, but he left one major detail out...He mentions that he was special forces, and rose to the rank of master sgt., if I remember correctly.
Special forces are elite units that soldiers volunteer for, and only the best are selected. One has to try to become special forces, and many are released from the program if they are deemed to not have the physical or mental aptitude for the specific tasks of their particular unit. Paratroopers are trained to drop behind enemy lines and perform covert missions, often without the knowledge and sanction of traditional military/political channels. My father was a paratrooper in the Korean war, and was often sent on missions lasting for weeks where only a few people knew where he was and what he was doing. These missions do change you, but he chose that duty as a way to separate himself from the madness of being around the other soldiers and restriction as often as possible. Perhaps Sgt Goff did the same thing, but by the time he had the opportunity to become special forces, he would have had knowledge of what goes on.
His truest statement, in my opinion, is do what you need to do to survive. It's what he did, what my father did, and what saudade needs to do.
I have compassion, I am not apathetic, but I believe people should be held accountable for their decisions. What kind of military would we have, what kind of country would we have if every time someone wanted to not fight because it wasn't what he signed up for, we let them leave? We wouldn't have one. Someone would have taken us over by now, and enforced their rules on us.
Perhaps we should encourage and thank suadade for his sacrifice, rather than trying to help him figure out ways to cheat the system. They wouldn't work anyway, and he'd ultimately be more frustrated that he is now.
There have been several times in my life that I considered joining the armed forces. There is a part of me that would do well in such an environment. But each time I seriously considered it, people who know and love me forced me to look closer at who I am and at what I was about to do, and helped me realize that there is a larger part of me that would not do at all well in a situation where I had little or no autonomy over my own destiny.
I am the type of person who doesn't take orders well, especially if I don't agree with them. All of the people who post here are free thinkers, creative, passionate, and compassionate. Not everyone is this way. We cannot expect everyone to think the way we do. Many are prepared to take the risks joining the military entails without consideration, because their lives are then handed to them, and unfortunately, sometimes their deaths are too.
As Sgt. Goff says, the experiences of war change a person. There is no doubt of that. His opinions have obviously changes over the years understandably, but he left one major detail out...He mentions that he was special forces, and rose to the rank of master sgt., if I remember correctly.
Special forces are elite units that soldiers volunteer for, and only the best are selected. One has to try to become special forces, and many are released from the program if they are deemed to not have the physical or mental aptitude for the specific tasks of their particular unit. Paratroopers are trained to drop behind enemy lines and perform covert missions, often without the knowledge and sanction of traditional military/political channels. My father was a paratrooper in the Korean war, and was often sent on missions lasting for weeks where only a few people knew where he was and what he was doing. These missions do change you, but he chose that duty as a way to separate himself from the madness of being around the other soldiers and restriction as often as possible. Perhaps Sgt Goff did the same thing, but by the time he had the opportunity to become special forces, he would have had knowledge of what goes on.
His truest statement, in my opinion, is do what you need to do to survive. It's what he did, what my father did, and what saudade needs to do.
I have compassion, I am not apathetic, but I believe people should be held accountable for their decisions. What kind of military would we have, what kind of country would we have if every time someone wanted to not fight because it wasn't what he signed up for, we let them leave? We wouldn't have one. Someone would have taken us over by now, and enforced their rules on us.
Perhaps we should encourage and thank suadade for his sacrifice, rather than trying to help him figure out ways to cheat the system. They wouldn't work anyway, and he'd ultimately be more frustrated that he is now.
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sara
Every thought I have about the military is linked to a red hot emotion, and anger makes me incoherent and a poor speller. I should not have implied that you aren't compassionate.
"Perhaps we should encourage and thank suadade for his sacrifice, rather than trying to help him figure out ways to cheat the system. They wouldn't work anyway, and he'd ultimately be more frustrated that he is now."
you are right, Maverick
What you and Tommy are saying makes a lot of sense. But I know people, who are not retarded, who had no idea what they were getting into, and that is all there is to know for me. I care about them, they aren't stupid, and they are in the same situation suadade is in. The only difference is that they have already gathered their resolve; whereas, suadade has not. I wish all kids understood as completely as Tommy and his brothers did what is going to happen to them. That would be ideal.
I think part of the problem does have to do with our educational system, Tommy; recruiters crawl all over public high schools in my county every year, and there is a very good reason why these guys and girls are notorious among the military for misrepresenting the truth.
"Perhaps we should encourage and thank suadade for his sacrifice, rather than trying to help him figure out ways to cheat the system. They wouldn't work anyway, and he'd ultimately be more frustrated that he is now."
you are right, Maverick
What you and Tommy are saying makes a lot of sense. But I know people, who are not retarded, who had no idea what they were getting into, and that is all there is to know for me. I care about them, they aren't stupid, and they are in the same situation suadade is in. The only difference is that they have already gathered their resolve; whereas, suadade has not. I wish all kids understood as completely as Tommy and his brothers did what is going to happen to them. That would be ideal.
I think part of the problem does have to do with our educational system, Tommy; recruiters crawl all over public high schools in my county every year, and there is a very good reason why these guys and girls are notorious among the military for misrepresenting the truth.
Actually Mav, I tend to lean toward your and Tommy's side. I didn't mean for the letter I posted to imply otherwise, I just found it interesting to read and wanted to share it.
It is pretty hard to have sympathy, which is why I didn't immediately respond to suadade's post. But then others were throwing out ideas, so I figured I'd throw some out. You are right, though, people who join the military cannot possibly be unaware it may cost them their lives.
It is pretty hard to have sympathy, which is why I didn't immediately respond to suadade's post. But then others were throwing out ideas, so I figured I'd throw some out. You are right, though, people who join the military cannot possibly be unaware it may cost them their lives.
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Guest
Believe me Mark, it's not.
Once again I don't have the time or the typing chops to fill out a real answer but suffice to say there has been, and still is, a quite distorted picture of British life presented to the American public.
It is something that I labour under everyday. I am constantly asked why, in America, we can't have news more like the BBC or more TV like masterbates theatre. Or why primeministers are more articulate than presidents.
The general thrust of it is that, all in all,the British are more intelligent. (There are even famous quotes, "The British have culture: Americans have sunglasses.") Wandering around quoting Shakeskipling in it's original British latin etc. It is something that I have certainly used to my advantage at times and it is a constant source of amusement - doubly so when you first come over. God knows how many times I have seen some plumbers mate from Scunthorpe deporting himself like the 5th Earl of Retford.
A number of years ago (Ten?) the now defunct Spy Magazine devoted a whole issue to the difference between the real Britain and the one presented here. It was brilliant, the cover was a huge photo of Diana with a chipped tooth.
I have to go now, but this is something I could gas on about for hours, maybe when we finally get to a pub without a jukebox.
Once again I don't have the time or the typing chops to fill out a real answer but suffice to say there has been, and still is, a quite distorted picture of British life presented to the American public.
It is something that I labour under everyday. I am constantly asked why, in America, we can't have news more like the BBC or more TV like masterbates theatre. Or why primeministers are more articulate than presidents.
The general thrust of it is that, all in all,the British are more intelligent. (There are even famous quotes, "The British have culture: Americans have sunglasses.") Wandering around quoting Shakeskipling in it's original British latin etc. It is something that I have certainly used to my advantage at times and it is a constant source of amusement - doubly so when you first come over. God knows how many times I have seen some plumbers mate from Scunthorpe deporting himself like the 5th Earl of Retford.
A number of years ago (Ten?) the now defunct Spy Magazine devoted a whole issue to the difference between the real Britain and the one presented here. It was brilliant, the cover was a huge photo of Diana with a chipped tooth.
I have to go now, but this is something I could gas on about for hours, maybe when we finally get to a pub without a jukebox.
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mccutcheon
- New York Scribbler
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well first of all i am glad to see that tommy, who is akin to a style cop around here, isn't above mixing up his "its" and it's".
also i am glad that i basically agree with what he says: that when you sign up with the military, you agree to kill and to die.
there should be no going back from that.
except of course, for two interconnected principles.
firstly, what about making a mistake? 18-year-old kids who know nothing about life do stupid things. if joining the army was stupid, there should be a way out. of course, you pay for your mistakes; having it harder to get a job for flunking a dope test is disagreeable but ok, if you ask me.
second point is: what if you join the army thinking the war is just (or not thinking at all?) and you find out, through experience, that iraq is not a good cause? that it's vietnam and not WW2?
well, in such a case i would go so far as to say you have a moral responsibility to defect. and you deserve my solidarity.
wow, having said all this, maybe i don't agree with tommy after all?
also i am glad that i basically agree with what he says: that when you sign up with the military, you agree to kill and to die.
there should be no going back from that.
except of course, for two interconnected principles.
firstly, what about making a mistake? 18-year-old kids who know nothing about life do stupid things. if joining the army was stupid, there should be a way out. of course, you pay for your mistakes; having it harder to get a job for flunking a dope test is disagreeable but ok, if you ask me.
second point is: what if you join the army thinking the war is just (or not thinking at all?) and you find out, through experience, that iraq is not a good cause? that it's vietnam and not WW2?
well, in such a case i would go so far as to say you have a moral responsibility to defect. and you deserve my solidarity.
wow, having said all this, maybe i don't agree with tommy after all?
Heady subject ... I have to lean on the side of what Tommy and Maverick said. No need to rehash. However, in deference to what Martino stated about exceptions to the rule. I think if a commander gave you an order to do something that was a clear CLEAR violation of the law and/or geneva conventions, you'd probably be safe in not doing it. Safe in a legal sense. Problem is, you might not be safe in the practical sense. Especially if every other soilder in your squad was for whatever order had been given. I'd bet that some of those really young soilders especially back in the Vietnam days did things they would normally never do out of fear of their own lives from their own commanders. But who am I to say?
myke
myke
Well, it goes both ways, though, Tommy. People in the UK and Europe have false ideas of Americans based upon our television programs. I know when I was over there, I felt as if everyone expected me to have loads of money, for one thing. I remember a guy who lived in my building when I was in Salford and he wasn't too intelligent, so I wouldn't think everyone in England was. But then I realize you may not have been addressing me specifically when you said that. Anyway...definitely would be good to get to a pub sometime. You can name the place, if you like. Conor Byrne's in Ballard comes to mind as a pretty quiet place, but I'd also enjoy going somewhere I've never been before.
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Tommy Martyn
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Martino,
I am pushed for time here, so I will firstly commend you on the stuff you wrote in bookgroup. (I hope the collective take a peek) How sad that you can't make it down to the pub with no jukebox for a few sherberts. With regard to the question of moral obligation and serving in the military, I think it is important to remember that we are not talking about a conscriptive army and that duties arise out of a given oath. If an oath does not imply an obligation I don't know what does. By becomming a soldier you lose your individuality. As terrible as this would be for civil society it is a necessary part of the job.
In the field, your comrades depend on the fact that you obey the same orders. In the wider context, it would be impossible to have a military that, "thinks for itself." As much as it would please this board, a situation where the President gives the executive order and the army says, "We'll get back to you." Well, you can see where that would get us.
You are correct to say that young people make mistakes. I am sorry to say that there are some mistakes that you don't get out of. Two years into parenthood you don't get to drown your kids because they are turning out to be harder work than you could ever imagine. Or worse, they are turning out to be American.
I am pushed for time here, so I will firstly commend you on the stuff you wrote in bookgroup. (I hope the collective take a peek) How sad that you can't make it down to the pub with no jukebox for a few sherberts. With regard to the question of moral obligation and serving in the military, I think it is important to remember that we are not talking about a conscriptive army and that duties arise out of a given oath. If an oath does not imply an obligation I don't know what does. By becomming a soldier you lose your individuality. As terrible as this would be for civil society it is a necessary part of the job.
In the field, your comrades depend on the fact that you obey the same orders. In the wider context, it would be impossible to have a military that, "thinks for itself." As much as it would please this board, a situation where the President gives the executive order and the army says, "We'll get back to you." Well, you can see where that would get us.
You are correct to say that young people make mistakes. I am sorry to say that there are some mistakes that you don't get out of. Two years into parenthood you don't get to drown your kids because they are turning out to be harder work than you could ever imagine. Or worse, they are turning out to be American.
point very well made tommy.
there are some things in life that you can't weazel yourself out of. i think there are not as many absolutes as there used to be, but to put it on a scale:
parenthood: i agree 100%. voluntary military service: i agree 80%. marriage: i would say 50%. From there on, it goes downward.
we have military conscription over here; back then during the cold war i opted out and went conscientious objecter because i didn't want to take an oath to do things i thought i would likely regret later on. i have little sympathy for GIs who decide that iraq is too much of a pain in the ass. i have more sympathy, but not total sympathy for when a hick gets educated and sees he has been screwed by the army.
by the way, what is the pub with no jukebox, and what about the sherberts? i am baffled, sorry. but it would be nice to go out in seattle again and some drinking talk would be just great.
there are some things in life that you can't weazel yourself out of. i think there are not as many absolutes as there used to be, but to put it on a scale:
parenthood: i agree 100%. voluntary military service: i agree 80%. marriage: i would say 50%. From there on, it goes downward.
we have military conscription over here; back then during the cold war i opted out and went conscientious objecter because i didn't want to take an oath to do things i thought i would likely regret later on. i have little sympathy for GIs who decide that iraq is too much of a pain in the ass. i have more sympathy, but not total sympathy for when a hick gets educated and sees he has been screwed by the army.
by the way, what is the pub with no jukebox, and what about the sherberts? i am baffled, sorry. but it would be nice to go out in seattle again and some drinking talk would be just great.
Well I'm not sure what the pub with no jukebox is about. I'm not sure if Tommy meant to tear me away from music in order to concentrate more on conversation, or whether he just prefers the quiet. Either road is fine by me, but if you asked me to name a pub without a jukebox, I could but it wouldn't be a pub without music entirely. I'm still hoping Tommy will explain.
Sherberts...someone at McC's house had talked of how, even though it's called Sherbet (this sort of ice cream-like dessert, only without the cream) but yet there is this tendency to say "sherbert". As a kid, I would say "sherbert" and my mother would correct me. Hell if I know.
Sherberts...someone at McC's house had talked of how, even though it's called Sherbet (this sort of ice cream-like dessert, only without the cream) but yet there is this tendency to say "sherbert". As a kid, I would say "sherbert" and my mother would correct me. Hell if I know.