great pics!
I was watching some footage from a demonstation on CNN last night, it looked a bit frenzied. All those people, so passionate about what they believe in, i think it was one of the most beautiful things id ever seen,. i mean, if you're going to believe in something, i think peace is a good place to start.
International Terrorism
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tashasimone
- Big Ears
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:01 am
- Location: Michigan
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I think you're right Tasha. The US and UK didn't listen to their own people, which makes them as bad fascist Saddam. So much for democracy.
Bush is gonna get poled at the polls.
The good news is that Germany, France, and Russia have already decided to veto the next UN resolution no matter what. Someone is listening to us.
I said it once, let me say it again...
Down with American Imperialism!
Vive la France!
Deutchland Deutchland uber alles!
Vodka Borscht and Caviar!
Bush is gonna get poled at the polls.
The good news is that Germany, France, and Russia have already decided to veto the next UN resolution no matter what. Someone is listening to us.
I said it once, let me say it again...
Down with American Imperialism!
Vive la France!
Deutchland Deutchland uber alles!
Vodka Borscht and Caviar!
International Terrorism
Just so I don't sound pro Iraq...
This is the Sloth's solution to the problem...
Mandate democratic elections in Iraq. Let the people decide their own fate. It's time for the backwards ass Middle East to stand up and be counted. Every man and woman to the polls.
Remember that Frankie Goes to Hollywood video where Reagan and Gorbechev fight in the ring? We need to have one where Bush and Saddam go at it. That would be too cool in an 80's techno remix pop song sort of way.
This is the Sloth's solution to the problem...
Mandate democratic elections in Iraq. Let the people decide their own fate. It's time for the backwards ass Middle East to stand up and be counted. Every man and woman to the polls.
Remember that Frankie Goes to Hollywood video where Reagan and Gorbechev fight in the ring? We need to have one where Bush and Saddam go at it. That would be too cool in an 80's techno remix pop song sort of way.
International Terrorism
I think if free and fair elections were even the slightest bit of a possibility, the possibility (or foregone conclusion) of going to war with Iraq would be moot. The eventual outcome of a war with Iraq (again, not that I'm advocating that as a solution) would be elections by the Iraqi people of a democratic government. I'll agree that the Middle Eastern citizens need to stand up and be counted but the governments there aren't likely to give up their throwns any time in the near future. Even the "elected" president of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak, is a defacto totalitarian ruler.
I definitely think that Germany, France, and/or Russia will use their status as permanent member of the UN Security Council to veto any new resolution against Iraq that the UK or US might present. I'm not sure that it will matter either way to the eventual outcome of the Iraqi solution.
Question: If most really think that the route of the United Nations is the way to go in resolving issues with Iraq and other countries, what do you do when they continue to violate resolution after resolution? When do you say "enough is enough"? Iraq has violated at least 17 resolutions that were passed one on top of another and nothing has been done. If the UN is to be a relevant institution in the future, at some point if it's own resolutions are not adheered to, there must be another avenue. Sometimes that avenue will have to be military intervention. If this option is taken off the table as an option, the UN will become a paper tiger.
Many protests around the world .. including here and Britain. To assume that it means the whole of each nation is against the possibility of military intevention is a flawed assumption. Could be true but no real proof that it's the case. You could make a mass demonstration for or against anything in this country with hundreds of thousands of people. However, there could still be several million more who don't feel the same way and simply don't feel a need to hold a sign in order to say so.
Question: Many times here it has been pointed out that the nations comprised of Germany, France, Russia, and also Belgium are resisting the US & UK intentions of toppleing Sadaam. I must point out again that there are also a considerable amount of nations ranging from Spain & Italy to Latvia and the Czech Republic who are backing the US/UK position. Do you think those countries positions are irrevlevant with the German/French/Russian/Belgians' opionions being the only ones who speak for the whole of Europe?
myke
I definitely think that Germany, France, and/or Russia will use their status as permanent member of the UN Security Council to veto any new resolution against Iraq that the UK or US might present. I'm not sure that it will matter either way to the eventual outcome of the Iraqi solution.
Question: If most really think that the route of the United Nations is the way to go in resolving issues with Iraq and other countries, what do you do when they continue to violate resolution after resolution? When do you say "enough is enough"? Iraq has violated at least 17 resolutions that were passed one on top of another and nothing has been done. If the UN is to be a relevant institution in the future, at some point if it's own resolutions are not adheered to, there must be another avenue. Sometimes that avenue will have to be military intervention. If this option is taken off the table as an option, the UN will become a paper tiger.
Many protests around the world .. including here and Britain. To assume that it means the whole of each nation is against the possibility of military intevention is a flawed assumption. Could be true but no real proof that it's the case. You could make a mass demonstration for or against anything in this country with hundreds of thousands of people. However, there could still be several million more who don't feel the same way and simply don't feel a need to hold a sign in order to say so.
Question: Many times here it has been pointed out that the nations comprised of Germany, France, Russia, and also Belgium are resisting the US & UK intentions of toppleing Sadaam. I must point out again that there are also a considerable amount of nations ranging from Spain & Italy to Latvia and the Czech Republic who are backing the US/UK position. Do you think those countries positions are irrevlevant with the German/French/Russian/Belgians' opionions being the only ones who speak for the whole of Europe?
myke
International Terrorism
MANDATE a free election? How would that be enforced? Would anyone worthy run? If they did, would they live long enough to be elected, if the people actually believed in their newfound freedom and ventured out to vote? They have been oppressed for so long, those that did stand up against their leaders have been killed so often, that it would take some time (and possibly outside assurance) for people to really take charge of their government.
If a UN resolution mandated an election, would you advocate the use of military force to ensure that the election was fair, and that people were truly allowed to vote. It's not as if those currently in power would just back off and say, "OK, the UN wants me to step down and let someone new be elected, so I will."
We have enough trouble in the US making elections fair (which they often aren't) and we've had over 200 years practice. It isn't rational to think that after probably thousands of years of tradition against free elections, that all of a sudden one would just work out.
I hope that there is no need for war, but unless Sadaam and his government suddenly become rational, I fear it will come to it, whether sooner or later, it will.
If a UN resolution mandated an election, would you advocate the use of military force to ensure that the election was fair, and that people were truly allowed to vote. It's not as if those currently in power would just back off and say, "OK, the UN wants me to step down and let someone new be elected, so I will."
We have enough trouble in the US making elections fair (which they often aren't) and we've had over 200 years practice. It isn't rational to think that after probably thousands of years of tradition against free elections, that all of a sudden one would just work out.
I hope that there is no need for war, but unless Sadaam and his government suddenly become rational, I fear it will come to it, whether sooner or later, it will.
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Maverick, nobody likes Iraq. But as your boy Sting once sang:
"To blow up their children only proves them right."
"To blow up their children only proves them right."
International Terrorism
Myke,
It's no secret that Europe has moved to the right. There was an assassination in Holland of all places. Italy almost dumped the Euro. Germany's economy is in a tailspin. The demonstrations in Madrid were amongst the largest in the world. Le Pen got in the election final in France! How scary is that shit? He got the second most votes of anyone and his platform was the removal of all Africans from French soil. He was an admitted fascist!
Why are we even arguing? Less finish degrading this debate into nonsense about free elections in Iraq. It might happen one day if the leading candidate is pro American enough.
I agree with most of your views anyway. You seem like a sensible bloke. But I am totally sick of war. I remember as a kid I believed the US was a peaceful and good nation. I guess I was lied to. We are God's fucking cop. We like war and go there too easily. I wish the troops would come home. Attacking Iraq is not the answer to world peace. Those kids over there are gonna get fucked. Violence begets violence. We're breeding hate in the middle East and no Iraq is not going to welcome our troops with anything except bullets. Invading armies are not typically adored!
To think that we are turning ancient lands of un-enlightened peoples into modern holy battlefields is disgusting. And for what? Is Iraq really a threat to us? No. Cheap oil. 100,000 American troops on the border and their first target is not Saddam but the oil fields. Do the math. This is robbery.
It's no secret that Europe has moved to the right. There was an assassination in Holland of all places. Italy almost dumped the Euro. Germany's economy is in a tailspin. The demonstrations in Madrid were amongst the largest in the world. Le Pen got in the election final in France! How scary is that shit? He got the second most votes of anyone and his platform was the removal of all Africans from French soil. He was an admitted fascist!
Why are we even arguing? Less finish degrading this debate into nonsense about free elections in Iraq. It might happen one day if the leading candidate is pro American enough.
I agree with most of your views anyway. You seem like a sensible bloke. But I am totally sick of war. I remember as a kid I believed the US was a peaceful and good nation. I guess I was lied to. We are God's fucking cop. We like war and go there too easily. I wish the troops would come home. Attacking Iraq is not the answer to world peace. Those kids over there are gonna get fucked. Violence begets violence. We're breeding hate in the middle East and no Iraq is not going to welcome our troops with anything except bullets. Invading armies are not typically adored!
To think that we are turning ancient lands of un-enlightened peoples into modern holy battlefields is disgusting. And for what? Is Iraq really a threat to us? No. Cheap oil. 100,000 American troops on the border and their first target is not Saddam but the oil fields. Do the math. This is robbery.
International Terrorism
Remember when Iraq invaded Kuwait? That was supposed to be the reason we went to war with Iraq in the first place. Because THEY invaded another country. Funny, isn't it?
I don't care even if Bush is right about Saddam's supposed threat. He obviously doesn't care enough about it to do more than a piss poor job of thinking about anyone else but himself and his supporters. His strategy is to merely ignore those that express doubts. He has not even addressed or attempted to address their concerns. What a mistake to make! Myke, you and others can hurl all the hate fueled insults at French Germans whoever you want, but I believe if Bush and his administration had taken just 5 seconds out of their rush-to-war haste to at least confront those who doubted them and respectfully acknowledged their concerns, if they had not insulted other nations as "an axis of evil" or "old Europe", if they had only shown the intelligence, foresight and consideration to exercise a bit of good old fashioned diplomacy toward other nations, my guess is the French Germans and all the rest would probably be right there at his side today and we all probably would have already done something about this supposed threat!
If Bush is not able to see that 2 plus 2 equals 4 and that yes, diplomacy, respect, foreign policy, and public opinion go together, what makes you think he's trustworthy? Anyone who can't see that those things go together, even purely for the sake of carrying out his own aims, is a 2 year old and I don't want a 2 year old running my country, thanks. I don't follow people with less than half a brain blindly into WAR.
America's a pretty well off country. But I wonder if we really have the money to apply these same standards and invasions to every country living under a brutal non-democratic regime forever.
Quite a commitment, eh?
I don't care even if Bush is right about Saddam's supposed threat. He obviously doesn't care enough about it to do more than a piss poor job of thinking about anyone else but himself and his supporters. His strategy is to merely ignore those that express doubts. He has not even addressed or attempted to address their concerns. What a mistake to make! Myke, you and others can hurl all the hate fueled insults at French Germans whoever you want, but I believe if Bush and his administration had taken just 5 seconds out of their rush-to-war haste to at least confront those who doubted them and respectfully acknowledged their concerns, if they had not insulted other nations as "an axis of evil" or "old Europe", if they had only shown the intelligence, foresight and consideration to exercise a bit of good old fashioned diplomacy toward other nations, my guess is the French Germans and all the rest would probably be right there at his side today and we all probably would have already done something about this supposed threat!
If Bush is not able to see that 2 plus 2 equals 4 and that yes, diplomacy, respect, foreign policy, and public opinion go together, what makes you think he's trustworthy? Anyone who can't see that those things go together, even purely for the sake of carrying out his own aims, is a 2 year old and I don't want a 2 year old running my country, thanks. I don't follow people with less than half a brain blindly into WAR.
America's a pretty well off country. But I wonder if we really have the money to apply these same standards and invasions to every country living under a brutal non-democratic regime forever.
Quite a commitment, eh?
International Terrorism
I'm gettin' ready for work here but I wanted to say one thing. I don't harbor any hatred toward the French or the Germans. Disagreeing with anyone doesn't mean you hate them. It could ... but not in my case. No "hate filled insults" have emanated from my lips. A few jokes I was forwarded on the French that I did find funny but doesn't mean they were embedded with hate. Very strong word. Your linking it to me is a false proclamation.
myke
myke
International Terrorism
the jokes were piss-poor unfunny examples of stupid stereotypes. merely because of the prevailant jingoistic atmosphere do we hear this kind of humor; could you imagine comparable polish or jewish jokes being recited in public?
i for one do not think you are a hater myke and that's for sure. but i think you are misinformed and, though you profess to be a moderate, you sound pretty well right of center.
hell, you even sound more conservative than the fucking new york times. just read an example of what the NYT says today and think whether it sounds leftist in your ears.
"There's so much chest-thumping, so many alarms about Iraqi menace, that I sometimes feel that the only patriotic thing to do is to invade Iraq and plow salt into its soil.
So it's useful to conjure a conservative war hero like Dwight Eisenhower and consider what he would do if he were president today. After his experience with Hitler, Ike would stand up to the lily-livered pussy-footing peaceniks and squish Saddam Hussein like a bug, right?
No, probably not.
Eisenhower, who led the European Allies to victory in World War II and was president from 1953 to 1961, faced a crisis in Egypt similar to today's and effectively chose containment rather than invasion. Likewise, even when faced with the threat of weapons of mass destruction, President John F. Kennedy chose to contain Cuba rather than invade it, and President Ronald Reagan chose to contain Libya rather than invade it. I hope we have the courage and discipline to emulate such restraint by Eisenhower, Kennedy and Reagan today and choose containment over war for Iraq.
In Ike's case, he faced a man perceived in the West as a far greater menace than Saddam is today — Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt."
now this is a moderate opinion, even though it is probably far left of what you believe in. and i could quote many more such moderate opinions.
i for one do not think you are a hater myke and that's for sure. but i think you are misinformed and, though you profess to be a moderate, you sound pretty well right of center.
hell, you even sound more conservative than the fucking new york times. just read an example of what the NYT says today and think whether it sounds leftist in your ears.
"There's so much chest-thumping, so many alarms about Iraqi menace, that I sometimes feel that the only patriotic thing to do is to invade Iraq and plow salt into its soil.
So it's useful to conjure a conservative war hero like Dwight Eisenhower and consider what he would do if he were president today. After his experience with Hitler, Ike would stand up to the lily-livered pussy-footing peaceniks and squish Saddam Hussein like a bug, right?
No, probably not.
Eisenhower, who led the European Allies to victory in World War II and was president from 1953 to 1961, faced a crisis in Egypt similar to today's and effectively chose containment rather than invasion. Likewise, even when faced with the threat of weapons of mass destruction, President John F. Kennedy chose to contain Cuba rather than invade it, and President Ronald Reagan chose to contain Libya rather than invade it. I hope we have the courage and discipline to emulate such restraint by Eisenhower, Kennedy and Reagan today and choose containment over war for Iraq.
In Ike's case, he faced a man perceived in the West as a far greater menace than Saddam is today — Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt."
now this is a moderate opinion, even though it is probably far left of what you believe in. and i could quote many more such moderate opinions.
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mccutcheon
- New York Scribbler
- Posts: 4996
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2000 8:01 am
- Location: NYC
- Contact:
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I would say that JFK was the only US president that really faced weapons of mass destruction. Talk about tension. It’s a good thing he was able to have sex with Marilyn Monroe to relieve some of that pressure. Maybe we should by Bush a blow up doll. I don’t know. But I really don’t think war is the answer Bush was looking for. He thought it would be his legacy and now either way it won’t be. He saw how war helped turn his father’s popularity around. But then senior Bush lost the election because he was perceived as having lost contact with the American people- there was a infamous account of how senior Bush went to the market and didn’t know how to check out his purchases.
Well, were I’m going with this? The same thing is happening to George W. Bush. At the tennis club I overhear all these older rich, but not as rich as they were, conservatives bitching and moaning about the money they lost, their failing health benefits, their companies and lifestyles going down the drain, and they actually blame Bush. One guy said over his Martini (this was at 11am, there is more than just tennis being played- and I got a new French mixed doubles player), “Who would ever have thought I’d miss Clinton?” And all his buddies laughed.
Oh, and I returned a serve over 130 mph, but more on that later under a different thread.
Well, were I’m going with this? The same thing is happening to George W. Bush. At the tennis club I overhear all these older rich, but not as rich as they were, conservatives bitching and moaning about the money they lost, their failing health benefits, their companies and lifestyles going down the drain, and they actually blame Bush. One guy said over his Martini (this was at 11am, there is more than just tennis being played- and I got a new French mixed doubles player), “Who would ever have thought I’d miss Clinton?” And all his buddies laughed.
Oh, and I returned a serve over 130 mph, but more on that later under a different thread.
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tashasimone
- Big Ears
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:01 am
- Location: Michigan
International Terrorism
I'm still of the opinion that if Gore would have been elected, none of this would be happening,.
Damn republicans,
Damn Bush's
damn little boys who have a daddy complex who feel like they have something to prove
Damn this whole damn war mongering bullshit.
sorry about all the damn's
Damn republicans,
Damn Bush's
damn little boys who have a daddy complex who feel like they have something to prove
Damn this whole damn war mongering bullshit.
sorry about all the damn's
International Terrorism
bush already has a ps2!!!!! now we need to get him a doll?
International Terrorism
Oddly enough, I am a right of center to Martin. Everyone I know here thinks I'm left of former California Governor Jerry "moonbeam" Brown. I voted for Clinton twice. Gore once. And tried to get our last Governor, a Democrat, re-elected though damn it, no success there. Got a Repub this go around.
Speaking of mean spirited and stereotypical jokes ... try being a moderate in the ever conservative south. Or try watching Hollywood comedies picturing any southernor as an illiterate hick. I remember when BMW built it's only North American plant in this county and moved it's US headquarters here ... I read an article in a big paper from the northeast that stated BMW would likely now have to offer gunracks as options in their cars. Of course, this area is a bastion for the NRA.
Not misinformed. Much of what I've said has been to counter the vastly perceived notion here that the Germans and French represent all of the world's opinion against current US Iraqi policy. I don't personally think that they represent a majority of European opinion. It'd be close though, I'm sure.
Containment is the way to go if possible. Not in all cases, though. I think Martin's points were well made. I sometimes wonder, though, (seriously just wondering here) what the average Iraqi citizen would have to say about that if he/she could truly give an honest opinion without fear of reprisal. Would they honestly rather their despot of a leader be simply "containe" until he dies and his more brutal son Uday takes over or would they rather take a chance on the US or another nation toppleing him once and for all? Would they think this would at least give them a chance, however slim, of a better life? Or woudl they just rather carry on as is? That's what I'd like to know.
On with Tennis. Last year I blew my right knee out and had to have it re-constructed. A whole year off with no tennis! Damn it. Once I get back into the swing of it this spring, I shall find a way to meet McCutcheon on the court and kick his ass! (at tennis , only!)
myke
Speaking of mean spirited and stereotypical jokes ... try being a moderate in the ever conservative south. Or try watching Hollywood comedies picturing any southernor as an illiterate hick. I remember when BMW built it's only North American plant in this county and moved it's US headquarters here ... I read an article in a big paper from the northeast that stated BMW would likely now have to offer gunracks as options in their cars. Of course, this area is a bastion for the NRA.
Not misinformed. Much of what I've said has been to counter the vastly perceived notion here that the Germans and French represent all of the world's opinion against current US Iraqi policy. I don't personally think that they represent a majority of European opinion. It'd be close though, I'm sure.
Containment is the way to go if possible. Not in all cases, though. I think Martin's points were well made. I sometimes wonder, though, (seriously just wondering here) what the average Iraqi citizen would have to say about that if he/she could truly give an honest opinion without fear of reprisal. Would they honestly rather their despot of a leader be simply "containe" until he dies and his more brutal son Uday takes over or would they rather take a chance on the US or another nation toppleing him once and for all? Would they think this would at least give them a chance, however slim, of a better life? Or woudl they just rather carry on as is? That's what I'd like to know.
On with Tennis. Last year I blew my right knee out and had to have it re-constructed. A whole year off with no tennis! Damn it. Once I get back into the swing of it this spring, I shall find a way to meet McCutcheon on the court and kick his ass! (at tennis , only!)
myke
International Terrorism
Wow that's a great eavesdropping story, McC.
Please don't fail to share any more stuff like that with us. I'd like to hear about rich conservative Republican farts who don't like Bush 24/7.
Damnit Tasha, just damnit! Ha ha ha...
Please don't fail to share any more stuff like that with us. I'd like to hear about rich conservative Republican farts who don't like Bush 24/7.
Damnit Tasha, just damnit! Ha ha ha...