banning the burkhas

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megapulse
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Post by megapulse » Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:50 am

as long as it doesn't say something bad about fedex ;)

“But these spaces work because individuals Choose to be there. They aren't forced into it so they are actually capable of taking that responsiblity - and if they're not, they usually don't come back or get blacklisted like my ex-roommate and the local rave scene. It doens't hurt to create these spaces in such a way that in cases of raves that you have to break at least one or two laws just to participate - but using prohbition as the classic example, if your entire population gets used to breaking one or two laws regularaly you have problems.â€￾

Again the muslim women chose to live in a society where they were constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religious expression -- they were given freedom to choose within their country and acting within their rights, just like the kids within the raver communities who follow the rules -- the question is do the other raver kids get together and change the rules on some of the members to blacklist them?

So you should be able to have your dance parties and do your drugs -- (this is good for the individual? This is good for artists? because lord knows studies that the government have published have never been able to show someone getting hurt by either one of those, I mean they are completely safe and afterall ultimately the issue here was that at times freedom should be secondary to safety -- I mean recently I didn't just sit in a class where the government filled the heads of children with ideas about date rape drugs that can get placed in their drinks at these illegal parties -- no what you're talking about is not a safety issue, but the burka is . . . to that I ask, which times exactly are the best, when is it best for the government to take more control of your rights then they had to begin with? because they can usually drum up some safety issue, puffy coats and baggy pants = weapons, raves = the date rape drugs, etc. i could go on, you should see what they did to pot, you probably have) but muslim women should not be able to wear their burkas?

“Some places, it works better than others; these are very small places who have much more humane culture. I was watching this show on the travel channel the other night with J where it's like one of those reality shows - like think The Real World - but it's following tribal peoples: they were more HUMAN than people in the civilized western world. They went to work for some part of the day - but the amount of actual culture and thought put into daily life was amazing. I have professors that consider themselves very culturally refined because maybe three or four times a year they go to the ballet or a theather: but a cultural activity isn't a part of their daily life. They don't even necessarily eat dinner as a cultural practice - they just are doing what must be done in order to sustain life to be alive. Whereas the tribal society everything has so much thought put into it. If the theory that we are human because we are self-aware or because we are concious (sp?) then they are much more human than most civilized people who can manage to go at least a day without really thinking about anything.â€￾

Don't worry about spelling -- I know, these are the kinds of people who make me roll my eyes. I'm like whatever. Yeah, I know I've had similar conversations about the native american cultures -- they were amazing, so advanced. So smart! Have you ever been to St. Augustine, Florida? There is this supper cheesed out “Fountain of Youthâ€￾ museum -- it is all about Ponce de Leon and you get to drink this nasty sulfur water, it's a real treat -- but the amazing thing is what they explain about the Arawack (sp :) ?)people -- My god they were wonderful they seemed to have figured out natural selection and were using it to breed themselves into healthier and healthier people, this is why Ponce thought there was a fountain of youth, he was a dumbass!

if only the people here had listened to them and not been so ignorant and uppity. I feel the same way about a lot of teachers with their students. This is why I listen to kids, a lot of them at thirteen are still closer to self-awareness than adults (they haven't learned how to lie to themselves yet -- they are so honest, they don't have to keep it real, they are real)

I didn't know Stan Lee was responsible for that quote. I don't like the word power as much as the word freedom I guess power and freedom are similar, there are different types of power, and self-impowerment is about freedom I guess. That's cool. I will google it and see so I can reference it *properly* now. Since it is attributed to a graphic artists, that's really cooler; it'd have worked out cooler if Hokusai, the dude that started the manga, had said it -- my kids read his story and love manga -- well some of them.

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Post by megapulse » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:01 pm

oh, and i meant to say, the world is a more humane place. number one look at what ponce did to the arawacks. he rode on their backs b/c he did not feel like walking. his folks killed them for sport. in florida we at least don't kill people for sport anymore.

also a few months ago i posted an article, i think i called it 9-11 peace on earth. it explained that there was a massive study that has revealed that the world was more peacful in 2005, overall, than it was like twenty? thirty? years ago. I don't remember exactly but it's in the study. we are moving toward a more humane world. i don't think anyone responded to it, which the media has found to be a bit true too i think . . . war is profitable, peace is boring, no one reads it, so who cares if we're scaring and dumbing down the populace with the ignorant bullshit we print all over the place?

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Post by megapulse » Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:16 pm

here's the article again, from the wachington post . the more peaceful and human world that no one believes exists, does. and it is a shame that we are ignoring it instead of celebrating it:

Peace on Earth? Increasingly, Yes.

By Andrew Mack

Wednesday, December 28, 2005; Page A21

Seen through the eyes of the media, the world appears an evermore dangerous place. Iraq is sliding toward civil war, the slaughter in Darfur appears unending, violent insurgencies are brewing in Thailand and a dozen other countries, and terrorism strikes again in Bali. It is not surprising that most people believe global violence is increasing.

However, most people, including many leading policymakers and scholars, are wrong. The reality is that, since the end of the Cold War, armed conflict and nearly all other forms of political violence have decreased. The world is far more peaceful than it was.

Why has this change attracted so little attention? In part because the global media give far more coverage to wars that start than to those that quietly end, but also because no international agency collects global or regional data on any form of political violence.

The Human Security Report, an independent study funded by five countries and published by Oxford University Press, draws on a wide range of little publicized scholarly data, plus specially commissioned research to present a portrait of global security that is sharply at odds with conventional wisdom. The report reveals that after five decades of inexorable increase, the number of armed conflicts started to fall worldwide in the early 1990s. The decline has continued.

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Post by megapulse » Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:11 pm

And I just wanted to say for the record, in case anyone reads this who doesn't know about the politician and the “artistâ€￾ who were killed in the Netherlands -- they'd both been accused of taunting and aggravating the muslims in the Netherlands -- they both had reputations as intolerant racists, which is not to say they deserved to die.

And I'll grant him that Van Gogh wasn't just intolerant of the people who practiced one religion, he pretty much didn't want to tolerate any of them, not the religious institutions, but the human beings who practiced these religions.

“Van Gogh explained a "smell of caramel" by stating that "today they're only burning diabetic Jews." When he was criticized by the Jewish historian Evelien Gans, he wrote in Folia Civitatis magazine: "I suspect that Ms. Gans gets wet dreams about being fucked by Dr Mengele.â€￾

“He caused widespread resentment in the Muslim community by consistently referring to them as geitenneukers (goat-fuckers). Although it is not clear whether Van Gogh actually coined the term geitenneukers, he certainly popularized it.â€￾

He was “a friend and supporter of the controversial Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn who was assassinated in 2002. He was also a staunch supporter of the 2003 invasion of Iraqâ€￾

These two fucking hypocrites couldn't understand that freedom of expressing your dumbass philosophical beliefs is the same fucking thing as freedom of expressing your dumbass religious beliefs -- this is the politician, pim fortuyn's stance on freedom:

“he considered Article 7 of the constitution, which asserts freedom of speech, of more importance than Article 1, which forbids discrimination on the basis of religion, life principles, political inclination, race, sexual preference, or whateverâ€￾

The center right party that he created is the same one that is trying to ban the burka five days before an election.

they didn't deserve to die for being racist dumbasses, but they were racist and they are trying to legalize discrimination.

And this is what some left dutch folks think about the situation with muslims and non-muslims right now, the current climate in the Netherlands is a political one, and the banning of the burka is a political move by the right wing to appease the a racist middle class --this is from a pearl jam fan thread on the dutch elections:

“Originally Posted by Cuntified C
Ik ben engelse maar ik aan het nederlans leren! Ik heb veel gehoord over de problemen in de Nederlands een de vermoord van Theo Van Gogh een Pim Fortyn! Het zou me niet verbasen als in de toekomst zijn er meer van misdaads en problemen tussen de muslims en de andere personen die daar ook wonen!

Basically, I wouldn't be surprised if tension between the muslims and non muslims were to increase or a terrorist attack were to take place at some point in the future. Not that I would wish for that on anyone, in any country no matter what. I have heard that in the recent past, 4 muslims houses were burned down by middle class dutch people. Not even the yobs but the middle class, well educated, ought to know better class of people. My Dutch friend told me this because his sister lives in the Hague and it was on her street that all this shit took place!


Wat tof dat je nederlands leert!! Maar weinig mensen op de wereld die dat doen...haha. Moeilijke taal wel, he?!
I am studying Spanish of which I have the basics under control, but the grammar (especially past tense) is becoming harder now. Goodluck with the Dutch...why are you studying it?

About the tensions here...I have the feeling they have become a bit less..at least I really hope I am right.
However I heard from a student at my school that a couple of dutch boys had harassed her family (she is from Africa) and have attacked her house in the middle of the night. This took place in a tiny community near Dordrecht...horrible!!!
The thing with Pim Fortuyn as well as Ayaan Hirshi Ali and maybe even Theo van Gogh is that they catalized a lot of tension. I am all for PEACE and I truly wish Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuyn were still alive...but I must say I was quite scared of what Fortuyn was causing in this country. All his ideas came from a negative place and that was not healthy.
But I rather had that he lived on and maybe even ruled for a couple of years. That would have at least lessened his martyr status.â€￾

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Post by TragicPixie » Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:44 am

In the case of harrassment I have to say that because people wnat to protect freedom of speech - in the same way you're talking about religion.

But I'm going to have to agree to disagree mostly cause I have to ban myself from PA until this research proposal to submit to my advisors are done; and really probably until Dec. 17th ... So y'all should call me... cause I'm gonna be drinking alone a lot I think; J has decided not to be around so he won't be able to distract me ... But dammnit; someone's gotta do it.

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Post by TragicPixie » Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:44 am

And when I get back all these spambots better be posting actual pictures or sending me actual drugs in the mail... OK?

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Post by marky » Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:28 am

I'm sorry that I seem to have wearied of this discussion. The main reason is that I just can't decide if I'm for it or against it. I just keep reading the posts and swinging back and forth.

One thing that is a good point though that I read about on my own as well is that there really are very very few women in the Netherlands that actually wear Burkhas so...but like I said I just can't sustain interest in talking about it because I can't decide.

I did read this part that you said Sarah and had a good knee slapping laugh:

and i have to say in my experience, the kids are all right.

HAHAHA You know that's a reference to an old Who song from the 60's right? *gives you a high five*

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Post by megapulse » Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:14 pm

The spambots, okay, but I mean who cares, just ignore them. ;P

“You know that's a reference to an old Who song from the 60's right?â€￾ ;) yeah, I know, but did you know that's a reference to a not so old pearl jam cover of a who song from the sixties?

I don't think this is an issue of agreeing to disagree. I have agreed, not disagreed, with quite a bit of what you're saying and I understand where Mark is coming from on the immigration issue, really I do. But I also know I've seen Gore in lecture mode and read him in multiple magazines and read his lil book and seen the movie, and I believe what he's said is the inevitable outcome of global warming, and that is borders are going to blur when tsunamis and floods start, as they have, because of massive climate change. I believe the article I read this summer in Vanity Fair about what's going to happen to Europe's borders, and people are going to have to flee their countries, they're going to have to start moving to other countries rapidly and in mass, and we are all going to have to learn how to tolerate each others' religious differences because they are not going to go away with a ban on them -- and some folks could say that is a completely different issue, and some folks could say that is just looking at the big picture.

I do not agree with quite a bit of what the dutch centre right party created under Pim Fortym because he was associated with the far right and didn't like that association b/c as mark pointed out the dutch are “supposed to be tolerant,â€￾ who was supported by Theo Van Gogh wants to do, that does not mean I don't agree with you. Honestly, pixie, did you know all that was involved in this decision to ban burkas, politically I mean, when you started this discussion, because I didn't. I had a suspension b/c of the mayor's comment that this ban was largely politically motivated. It is an emotionally charged issue that was brought before the public before the elections. Did anyone on this board honestly know that to start out with?

Which to me is all a good discussion is about, not agreeing or disagreeing really, but learning, which is why I haven't wearied of this. I've still got quite a bit to learn here. I've been to several different outlets just to see exactly what is going on in the netherlands. here is a decent source to help understand where all of this is coming from, the political background, for anybody, including the spambots who wants to learn more, the origins of parts of this issue i guess:

"He was assassinated during the 2002 Dutch national election campaign by Volkert van der Graaf, an animal rights activist.

Wilhelmus Simon Petrus FortuynFortuyn was the center of controversy for his views on Islam and his anti-immigration positions. He called Islam "a backward culture" and said that he would close the borders to Muslims if it were legally possible.[2] He was labelled a far-right populist by his opponents and the media, but he fiercely rejected this label and distanced himself clearly from far-right politicians"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn


Also I don't understand this comment at all:
“In the case of harrassment I have to say that because people wnat to protect freedom of speech - in the same way you're talking about religion.â€￾

I don't see where anything anyone has posted or said in the posts implies that freedom of speech has been in danger in the Netherlands -- I don't get this. And to me these two things are almost exactly the same. I'm for both of them because to me the freedom to express yourself through your mouth is the same as the freedom to express yourself through your burka --

“the same way you're talking about religionâ€￾ -- :) yes, absolutely I want the freedom of speech to be protected, but no one has tried to ban it in the Netherlands, and sadly or not, depending on what you think of the one dutch artist who was killed by a muslim, his freedom of speech, his irresponsibility with that freedom had a very negative result, but no one was trying to take away his legal rights through the government -- one, ONE, crazy person killed him.

One crazy person, AN ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST, NOT A MUSLIM, killed Pim Fortyum -- there are crazy people no doubt who do terrible things. Like the middle class citizens of hague who are burning the houses of innocent people -- that is crazy too -- that does not mean we should take matches away from the middle class dutch!

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Post by megapulse » Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:05 am

1. Only six percent of the Dutch population is muslim and only five percent of that six percent are practicing their religion from what I've read, there are 920,000 muslims that would make about 46,000 of them muslims who practice their religion, out of population that consists of 16 million dutch people -- fundamentalist Islamic culture is in no way a pervasive threat to the dutch way of life.

2. The muslim immigrants that the centre right government, the one that wants to ban the burka/burqua, are in the Netherlands for one reason -- the reason is the dutch government.

3. The muslim immigrants in the Netherlands are not pouring over the borders as we speak -- some news articles say “recentâ€￾ immigrants when referring to muslims, but according to a report on pbs, the vast majority of the 5.8% to be more exact of the muslim population immigrated in the 1960's and 70's from Turkey and Morocco because the dutch government needed laborers and sought them out.

4. The muslim man who killed the one and only one artist, Theo Van Gogh, who I can find in the articles is not an immigrant -- he was born in the Netherlands.

5. Pim Fortyun was not an activist, I could find no dutch activists murdered by any muslims, I found one dutch activist who murdered an anti-muslim politician.

6. There have been some tensions between muslims and non-muslims in the Netherlands b/c after the death of Theo Van Gogh the facilities of seemingly innnocent muslims, an elementary school for one, was bombed. Also, it's been alleged by someone on the internet that in Hague muslim houses were burned down in neighborhoods by the dutch middle class citizens. Also it has been reported that muslim mosques have been burned and bombed.

These are the facts that I could find concerning this issue. If you wish to believe that burkas cause violence and safety issues in the Netherlands and that one very crafty political group has not used muslims first as laborers and then as the target of a fear mongering political campaign then that is your choice

If I've misrepresented or misunderstood these facts feel free to set me straight, but with all due respect to this issue, I think the burka is not the problem, and once again, I would love to see the Dutch people helping the women of the world who need jobs and food and I have seen that, and I'll get to it in a bit for those reading, perhaps the spambots who wish to learn.

Today my family decided against Christmas presents for ourselves or any person we know. We will be spending our money with heifer.org -- they are an organization that uses principles of sustainability and sharing -- sort of like global communism based oddly on western capitalism -- to bring women, children, and men out of poverty -- regardless of their religious affiliations -- they just don't give a shit about their religious backgrounds -- to them, they're humans who need help

I read somewhere this week while I was learning more about all of this a line calling Theo van Gogh a hero of free speech and a martyr for it -- in my opinion he was not a hero. In the south when the white majority called the black minority “niggersâ€￾ no one called them heroes - -why should this man be called a hero for calling the dark / Islamic minority “goat fuckersâ€￾?

If a white male film director in the U.S. said negative things about a religious group he'd be publicly humiliated -- don't believe me? Google Mel Gibson. Why is anyone saying this guy was a hero?

It is one thing to criticize the powerful / to use strong language to address issues and to take risks with your speech that gains freedom for all -- this does make you a hero, but to malign a weak and small minority while you have the backing of the prime minister does not make you a hero in my opinion.

But in all this I have found a hero, a person and a party that made me smile. I hope to learn more good things about them in the future:

“But the greatest surprise was the gain by the far left Socialist Party, led by Jan Marijnissen, an outspoken advocate for the working class. A former welder and once a Maoist, Mr. Marijnissen led the party from its inflexible Communist roots to become a broad protest movement that gained wide backing from people of various political stripes, as well as artists and intellectuals.

Nicknamed the Wizard of Oss, after his hometown, he became famous when he turned out to be one of the main architects of the Dutch vote that rejected the European Constitution in June 2005.

His party appeared to win 26 seats, a leap from its previous 9 seats, which makes it the third-largest bloc. The party's symbol is a tomato, which is meant to evoke a handy weapon to throw at fat cats and power-hungry politicians.

“I'm a deeply happy man today,â€￾ Mr. Marijnissen said. “It means that several million people have said they want a more caring society.â€￾

His group has called for more teachers, more care for the elderly, free child care and more public transportation.

He and Wouter Bos, the leader of the Labor Party, have both pledged to fight for amnesty for the thousands of failed asylum seekers, many of them in hiding, who are awaiting deportation from the Netherlands.

But this does not mean the country has wholly changed its anti-immigrant direction.â€￾

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/23/world ... dutch.html

I think about the Amsterdam of tolerance that I learned about -- it isn't the one of the red light district, and it's not even the one of the coffee / pot houses, it is the Amsterdam of Miep Geissel (sp :) ?) that I teach my students about -- the woman who gave assylum to German Jews by the last name Frank -- the one that Mr. Marijnissen seems to have remembered.

and amazingly this dude's last name is Marijnissen which rhymes with Zinn and Zen as well as Amen and think he'll go into my poem about the few good men that I thank the creator for.

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