funny you should question my whereabouts just as I was contemplating a response to this thread.
I was indeed, "on the golf course" for a bit, but it wasn't the country club course you all pictured...it was the "chip 'n putt" course in the retirement community that my parents now live in. That means that each hole is like 100 yards, as opposed to normal courses that are 300-500 yards per hole. So, therefore, there were no republicans that I could tell to fuck off and start a chain reaction of awareness(except my dad, who in the holiday spirit, decided not to talk any politics, although he and my mom did blast the Fox news channel on every television in there house as usual)
What to say about this thread...my first impression is that I am surprised that Tommy has not commented, although I bet he is waiting and building up some ammunition. Or he is refraining because it would take too long to say all of the things he wants to say.
That's a little bit how I feel. This topic has made me think so many things that I am not sure where to start.
I guess the first thing that comes to mind is sadness. I am sad that so many of my generation are so disillusioned by the current administration (and, no doubt, others in our lifetime)that they have completely lost perspective on America. I agree that there are many things wrong with our country, and that the current administration has exacerbated them with short-sighted policies, and a cocksure attitude that turns of many in other places around the world.
The point is, that is not what America is. Sloth, I'm sorry that your experiences led you to believe all of those things that you mentioned about complete predictabilitiy and ignorance. Yes, those people exist, yes, our country and our world would be a better place if the people with true personality spoke up and fought the generalization and standardation that republicans would like to see sweep the land...but many do.
Over the course of my life, I have run into a great many interesting people who do not blindly agree with everything the government feeds us...several of them post here. BUt there are two major problems that I see, and these aren't with the government: one is that these interesting, subversive, educated, intelligent people get so fed up with the things they don't like, that they become incapable of seeing the good. They lose perspective completely, and give up hope. This often leads to the belief that life is better somewhere else, then these people are consumed with leaving, and are unhappy until they have the opportunity to do so. (Sloth, it isn't just you, I have known several people who have done this, so please don't take offense.)
It is very interesting that someone like Martino, who is also an educated, intelligent, well-travelled person did not come to the same conclusions about Americans as Sloth did. Of course, it could be that Sloth spent his whole life in America, but it could also be that loss of perspective that i am talking about.
I'm not saying that life isn't better and that people aren't mroe respected in some european countries than they are in America, I really don't know. But I do know that America is much more than the bible-thumping, closed-minded bigots who dominate the news these days. That's why I wanted to hear Tommy's take on this, because he is someone who doesn't usually agree with many of the doctrinal views of the power elite, but he maintains a perspective about the country he has chosen to live in. It is sad to me when the people who seem to see the good with the bad are not people who were born here, but many of those whose intelligence and views I respect seem only able to see the worst.
I mentioned that there are 2 problems. The second is that so many of those people who can clearly see where America went wrong decide to leave. If this keeps happening, They will ultimately be right, our country will be left in the hands of those who believe that citizens are there to be manipulated, and that it is easier to manipulate them if their education is limited.
I am not putting down the desire to live in other places. I myself would love the opportunity to live in a european country for a while, to gain perspective on their society, and add that experience to who I am as an American. MOre people should do this, not fewer; but in the end we should bring this knowledge back to America, and incorporate it into the country and its' society.
Europeans have always had the understanding that there are people not far away who have similar, yet different lives due to their nationalities and experiences, and I believe that this understanding has led to some of the open mindedness that many disillusioned Americans seek when choosing to live in Europe.
Many Americans blindly believe that our way of life is the only one that is right, and this is undoubtedly wrong. This belief has been fostered by our own isolationism, especially in the middle of America. That needs to change. The best way for that to happen is for those isolated citizens to meet other Americans who are not isolated and who have more worldy experiences and views. Change happens slowly, and only with coaxing, but it can happen.
All of this is to say that I am a proud American, although I am not proud of many things that America stands for at the moment. This is a difficult time, and I hope that we can come through it and regain the world's respect, and perhaps even more importantly, our own self respect.
Yes, middle Americans elected a leader who has dragged us deeper into a pit, and who claims that salvation lies within a Christian faith. But in every major city on both coasts, this leader was not supported. This is evidence that our electoral system has problems, but the heartening fact is that the true power centers of America are not so short sighted and closed minded. Most tourists who visit America don't go to Kansas, or Mississippi; they go to New York, Los Angeles, places where they can see the diversity and vibrancy of life here in America.
I have never lived in another country, so I'm not sure of my next statement, but I conjecture that every place has its' pros and cons, that political ideologies are neither wholly good or wholly bad. Someone mentioned the "grass is always greener" earlier, and I am very wary of this. Nowhere is perfect, and everyplace needs the voices of intelligent, creative citizens to keep the country growing and changing as the world does.
Getting out of the U.S.?
maverick, i really enjoyed reading your response.
"The second is that so many of those people who can clearly see where America went wrong decide to leave. If this keeps happening, They will ultimately be right, our country will be left in the hands of those who believe that citizens are there to be manipulated, and that it is easier to manipulate them if their education is limited."
i agree
you also said change occurs slowly, somewhere i think, i can't find it, but i totally agree, and this is where i have the hardest time as far as my own personality because i tend to be very impatient.
i'll tell you too what keeps me sane and here is that my brother lives near and we're friends and he has a much more level headed perspective on things
"The second is that so many of those people who can clearly see where America went wrong decide to leave. If this keeps happening, They will ultimately be right, our country will be left in the hands of those who believe that citizens are there to be manipulated, and that it is easier to manipulate them if their education is limited."
i agree
you also said change occurs slowly, somewhere i think, i can't find it, but i totally agree, and this is where i have the hardest time as far as my own personality because i tend to be very impatient.
i'll tell you too what keeps me sane and here is that my brother lives near and we're friends and he has a much more level headed perspective on things
mark, hey, i missed your tweener post, yes, it's sarah, sorry (if there was a computer iq test i'd be below forest gump level, i mean really it's embarrassing, and i've made a f-ing webpage before, sometimes i think how do i use these programs and still not understand what the hell i'm doing)
anyway, i didn't know or remember that you were involved in social services, god, those folks deserve to be sainted, if they are catholics, but i understand, and it's weird because i was just thinking that what you do for a living and who you come in contact with really does change your perspective. my students in my community now are poor. i know a lot of poor people who live in town. there was a guy in an apartment in the town next to me who was literally starving to death when he was found and the only thing that was wrong with him was diabetes which had resulted in amputations, that's one of those stories you just don't want to retell or think about again, and yet i think about it all the time.
another lady is deaf and walks everywhere she goes, she sells her things literally to make ends meet -- i mean she literally has nothing because she has to sell her things
in this place where there is so much wealth there is so much poverty -- so i understand and what you were saying about the homeless -- they are treated like second class human beings in this country -- in one nc town this election year the homeless lost their right to vote because of residency issues -- and the university of north carolina has an organization to help homeless people that john edwards has developed, i'm like how didn't they know about this issue and why didn't they do something -- it's in their own state! (do you remember that song mr. wendell? a friend of mine put it on a cd for me for christmas this year, and it really hit home with me)
so i completely understand your perspective. but my brother volunteers in a jail, my dad volunteers at a food bank, my aunt runs a soup kitchen (and wants to open a homeless shelter because the one here is terrible), i'm a teacher in a title one school (which translates to the government, poverty / failure) -- i'm like yes, well, i guess we asked to be presented with these problems, so we're going to have to deal with them.
anyway, i didn't know or remember that you were involved in social services, god, those folks deserve to be sainted, if they are catholics, but i understand, and it's weird because i was just thinking that what you do for a living and who you come in contact with really does change your perspective. my students in my community now are poor. i know a lot of poor people who live in town. there was a guy in an apartment in the town next to me who was literally starving to death when he was found and the only thing that was wrong with him was diabetes which had resulted in amputations, that's one of those stories you just don't want to retell or think about again, and yet i think about it all the time.
another lady is deaf and walks everywhere she goes, she sells her things literally to make ends meet -- i mean she literally has nothing because she has to sell her things
in this place where there is so much wealth there is so much poverty -- so i understand and what you were saying about the homeless -- they are treated like second class human beings in this country -- in one nc town this election year the homeless lost their right to vote because of residency issues -- and the university of north carolina has an organization to help homeless people that john edwards has developed, i'm like how didn't they know about this issue and why didn't they do something -- it's in their own state! (do you remember that song mr. wendell? a friend of mine put it on a cd for me for christmas this year, and it really hit home with me)
so i completely understand your perspective. but my brother volunteers in a jail, my dad volunteers at a food bank, my aunt runs a soup kitchen (and wants to open a homeless shelter because the one here is terrible), i'm a teacher in a title one school (which translates to the government, poverty / failure) -- i'm like yes, well, i guess we asked to be presented with these problems, so we're going to have to deal with them.
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Tommy Martyn
- Mile High Club
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- Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 8:01 am
- Location: a desk
One of these days, perhaps when I become a grownup, or maybe I won't bother, I'll just be a combined playmate/parent to my kid. The main reason I'm not sure if I want kids is that eventually they become teenagers. That seems like a time where the fun of parenting is overwhelmed by the stress of parenting. Either way, you'll go through it first, and can give me some sage advice.
Nice to hear from you, Mav.
And Sarah you are right, a person can volunteer, which I have done at times (though mainly when I was trying to gain accounting experience in non-profits). But going to school, working *and* volunteering is a bit much. I was actually thinking of going back to volunteering recently though until I realized - wait! school is starting again soon - never mind! Hahah.
I'm kindof happy though because I found out about a job opportunity today that is like so perfect and I wasn't even looking for it. It's actually some company that ONLY works with non-profits and it's conveniently located too. Just one of those weird things where you feel like something has been dropped in your lap. But I'm not going to get my hopes up.
Anyway I guess we're off the subject of this thread now?
And Sarah you are right, a person can volunteer, which I have done at times (though mainly when I was trying to gain accounting experience in non-profits). But going to school, working *and* volunteering is a bit much. I was actually thinking of going back to volunteering recently though until I realized - wait! school is starting again soon - never mind! Hahah.
I'm kindof happy though because I found out about a job opportunity today that is like so perfect and I wasn't even looking for it. It's actually some company that ONLY works with non-profits and it's conveniently located too. Just one of those weird things where you feel like something has been dropped in your lap. But I'm not going to get my hopes up.
Anyway I guess we're off the subject of this thread now?
Another thing I'd like to offer is an idea for a perhaps peculiarly American tragic-comedy predicament of a film script:
[WARNING: SARCASM IS AFOOT, PLEASE BEWARE]
If one is lucky - very, very, very, lucky in America (the U.S. that is, it's not really supposed to be called America lest we include ourselves with Mexicans & Canadians -shock horror! And we KNOW we're not like THEM! *snicker snicker BIG FAT BITTER SARCASM*) Yes if we are lucky then we have good immune systems, given to us by birth and good genes or nutrition or just LUCK. And then we won't face the prospect of getting dreadfully sick and not being able to see a doctor without going into debt the rest of our lives. Aren't we lucky?
BUT there is a price to pay for such luxuries, and that is this: if our immune systems are blessed in this way, then we won't be able to convincingly take sick days off, which an American HAS to do for sanity because a number of other countries have 32-38 hour weeks as the norm instead of the workaholic American ethic which Europeans by and large can't understand. European laws uphold the family and individual as more sacred than business. American laws are the opposite.
That's why I listen to weird music all night and fail to care.
[WARNING: SARCASM IS AFOOT, PLEASE BEWARE]
If one is lucky - very, very, very, lucky in America (the U.S. that is, it's not really supposed to be called America lest we include ourselves with Mexicans & Canadians -shock horror! And we KNOW we're not like THEM! *snicker snicker BIG FAT BITTER SARCASM*) Yes if we are lucky then we have good immune systems, given to us by birth and good genes or nutrition or just LUCK. And then we won't face the prospect of getting dreadfully sick and not being able to see a doctor without going into debt the rest of our lives. Aren't we lucky?
BUT there is a price to pay for such luxuries, and that is this: if our immune systems are blessed in this way, then we won't be able to convincingly take sick days off, which an American HAS to do for sanity because a number of other countries have 32-38 hour weeks as the norm instead of the workaholic American ethic which Europeans by and large can't understand. European laws uphold the family and individual as more sacred than business. American laws are the opposite.
That's why I listen to weird music all night and fail to care.
"And Sarah you are right, a person can volunteer, which I have done at times (though mainly when I was trying to gain accounting experience in non-profits). But going to school, working *and* volunteering is a bit much. I was actually thinking of going back to volunteering recently though until I realized - wait! school is starting again soon - never mind! Hahah."
i've only become a compulsive volunteerer in the past two years. it's an addiction. i have the personality, and as luck or non-luck would have it, i also apparently have the genes for it, as opposed to alcoholism or something else that others get addicted to.
so you know, i understand that this has become my weird addiction, at one time i thought all must join me -- this is like an alcoholic wanting a beer buddy --
sooo . . . i guess you're staying for a while?
i've only become a compulsive volunteerer in the past two years. it's an addiction. i have the personality, and as luck or non-luck would have it, i also apparently have the genes for it, as opposed to alcoholism or something else that others get addicted to.
so you know, i understand that this has become my weird addiction, at one time i thought all must join me -- this is like an alcoholic wanting a beer buddy --
sooo . . . i guess you're staying for a while?
the insanity of the social state, as it were
you won't believe this. see, i spent the first week of this year on a canary isle, on la palma to be precise. (the canaries are a paradise off the west coast of africa). i had been nursing this freak 'flu that made me sweat all night and gave me these weird muscle pains. after a few days of paranoia (had i really been fucking the right people, was i sure i didn't have hiv?),
i went to see this german doctor (10% of la palma's population is german, so they have german doctors, german real estate agents, etc). he gives me an antibiotic and asks me whether i wanted a sick leave statement. sick leave statement?
and then i remember: if german employees get ill during their six weeks per year vacation, they get extra vacation time to compensate any days lost due to sickness.
so this is how the country is being run: the schools are bad, the streets are dirty, unemployment is at 10%, there is no money for psycholical treatment of homeless people, but the comfortable middle class makes sure nothing ever impinges upon their holy vacation time. for me as a self-employed person, this is madness. it may sound reactionary to say so, but there you are.
i went to see this german doctor (10% of la palma's population is german, so they have german doctors, german real estate agents, etc). he gives me an antibiotic and asks me whether i wanted a sick leave statement. sick leave statement?
and then i remember: if german employees get ill during their six weeks per year vacation, they get extra vacation time to compensate any days lost due to sickness.
so this is how the country is being run: the schools are bad, the streets are dirty, unemployment is at 10%, there is no money for psycholical treatment of homeless people, but the comfortable middle class makes sure nothing ever impinges upon their holy vacation time. for me as a self-employed person, this is madness. it may sound reactionary to say so, but there you are.
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Tommy Martyn
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- Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 8:01 am
- Location: a desk
Winds of change are blowing into the west. Competition in manufacturing has long since made it's race to the bottom. I assume that the majority of items in this house have "made in China" stamped on them. If inroads in the service sector continue to be made by non western nations, then the west will have to wake up to what it is actually competing against.
One thing is for sure. The thirty five hour/six week vacation will only apply to groups that have enough economic or political clout to keep a closed shop. Usually the professions. A judge would be a great example. I know I've banged on about it in the past but the age demographic thing will impact all this. Something is going to have to give.
Either those who work will have to give up a bigger and bigger part of their wages. (And I don't mean 1-1.5%) Or the benefits given to retirees will be reduced. There is no way around this. Britain had it's Thatcher revolution some 20 years ago. The German economy being more robust has had a longer run. It will be interesting to see who will be the winners and losers.
This a long way of saying no you are not a reactionary. Some things - whilst having merit - are sadly misguided. Sometimes it is true that santa is a democrat and god is a republican.
One thing is for sure. The thirty five hour/six week vacation will only apply to groups that have enough economic or political clout to keep a closed shop. Usually the professions. A judge would be a great example. I know I've banged on about it in the past but the age demographic thing will impact all this. Something is going to have to give.
Either those who work will have to give up a bigger and bigger part of their wages. (And I don't mean 1-1.5%) Or the benefits given to retirees will be reduced. There is no way around this. Britain had it's Thatcher revolution some 20 years ago. The German economy being more robust has had a longer run. It will be interesting to see who will be the winners and losers.
This a long way of saying no you are not a reactionary. Some things - whilst having merit - are sadly misguided. Sometimes it is true that santa is a democrat and god is a republican.
"Winds of change are blowing into the west. Competition in manufacturing has long since made it's race to the bottom. I assume that the majority of items in this house have "made in China" stamped on them. If inroads in the service sector continue to be made by non western nations, then the west will have to wake up to what it is actually competing against."
i think they have. i think it's called nanotechnology and globalization.
i think they are dumping it in virginia instead of hemp -- thus the greed comment to ee if you're reading both of these threads.
nanotechnology has the potential to be asbestos in terms of cell mutation, and there are several products already on the market that have been made in the usa
it's the cancer of the future -- what i mean by that is that it's not been tested properly (unlike the vaccine for hpv) and it's already being used.
viva la capitalism, right?
it sucks, hemp could have been the environmentally friendly biodeisel and textile replacing cash crop and hurt no one. as it is we've got nanotechnology.
i think they have. i think it's called nanotechnology and globalization.
i think they are dumping it in virginia instead of hemp -- thus the greed comment to ee if you're reading both of these threads.
nanotechnology has the potential to be asbestos in terms of cell mutation, and there are several products already on the market that have been made in the usa
it's the cancer of the future -- what i mean by that is that it's not been tested properly (unlike the vaccine for hpv) and it's already being used.
viva la capitalism, right?
it sucks, hemp could have been the environmentally friendly biodeisel and textile replacing cash crop and hurt no one. as it is we've got nanotechnology.
"Sometimes it is true that santa is a democrat and god is a republican"
i think it is more true that the united states is an oligarchy composed of the bipartisan union of satan and company.
(a capitalistic oligarchy -- mark is right, the government here in this country, not the country, but the government is a shithole, albeit, it's a better shithole than some others, sometimes i forget, but . . . then i remember, i mean if you read the book that sloth and ee recommended A People's History of the United States -- you'll see that the "wealthy colonizers" have plundered here since they came and they continue to plunder now -- same structure, different faces, people and the systems they create do not change, the names do, but some things are inherit to this system, fucking the natives over for the greatest profit is one of them and always has been)
i think it is more true that the united states is an oligarchy composed of the bipartisan union of satan and company.
(a capitalistic oligarchy -- mark is right, the government here in this country, not the country, but the government is a shithole, albeit, it's a better shithole than some others, sometimes i forget, but . . . then i remember, i mean if you read the book that sloth and ee recommended A People's History of the United States -- you'll see that the "wealthy colonizers" have plundered here since they came and they continue to plunder now -- same structure, different faces, people and the systems they create do not change, the names do, but some things are inherit to this system, fucking the natives over for the greatest profit is one of them and always has been)