I'm glad the war is over.
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mccutcheon
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I'm glad the war is over.
AP) - U.S. forces killed 27 Iraqi fighters in a ground and air pursuit Friday after the Iraqis attacked an American tank patrol north of Baghdad, bringing the opposition death toll in four days of skirmishes to about 100, according to the military. Friday's clash came as American forces pressed forward with a massive sweep to crush resistance by supporters of Saddam Hussein's ousted regime north of Baghdad. Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers said U.S. forces were sifting through intelligence that "foreign fighters" may have been at an alleged terrorist training camp northwest of Baghdad bombed early Thursday by U.S. forces
I'm glad the war is over.
Whoever said it was over?
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mccutcheon
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I'm glad the war is over.
Bush declared victory.
I'm glad the war is over.
Never trust anything the government says.
We dropped more bombs on Vietnam then in all of WW2 and we never even declared war.
Now the boys are dying over in Iraq. Another generation scarred for life in Bush's insatiable conquest for colonies to rape.
We need to leave the Arabs alone and get our own shit in order. People are starving in the streets of the USA. Don't kid yourself. Petty crime is up 33% in Seattle. Some asshole broke into my car and stole my stereo.
What we need is a revolution for the hell of it. Where is Abbie Hoffman when we need him?
We dropped more bombs on Vietnam then in all of WW2 and we never even declared war.
Now the boys are dying over in Iraq. Another generation scarred for life in Bush's insatiable conquest for colonies to rape.
We need to leave the Arabs alone and get our own shit in order. People are starving in the streets of the USA. Don't kid yourself. Petty crime is up 33% in Seattle. Some asshole broke into my car and stole my stereo.
What we need is a revolution for the hell of it. Where is Abbie Hoffman when we need him?
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mccutcheon
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I'm glad the war is over.
So what if this happens....So what if we don't find S.H. and Bush doesn't win the next election and the new president decides he doesn't want to waste young American lives- and pulls out of the occupation and take over. And S.H gains power again? Hmm. Yeah I know it won't happen. If Iraq invaded the states the way we invaded them and if I was forced to decide between Saddam and Bush I'd take Bush. And I hate Bush, can't stand him. Is there a point here. Probably not. Anyway this goes for most governments, except Holland.
I'm glad the war is over.
I agree with slothy on this one.
I'm glad the war is over.
declaring victory doesn't mean all hostilities cease
I'm glad the war is over.
In the Times today was a picture of a U.S. soldier being comforted by another. Apparently the guy broke down when he saw two Iraqi children get injured while playing with explosives. I wish the media had shown a U.S. soldier breaking down a long time ago.
War is hell, so how can people forget that fact, when it's been proven so many times before? We aren't getting anywhere in Iraq and we won't get anywhere until we let them take over their own country.
I still say the silver lining in the cloud is the fact that no WMD's have been found. A lot of people in Washington are wringing their hands over that. But I don't want a Dem president who was for the war. That ought to be the most fundamental thing. People are talking about Howard Dean. I don't know his chances for winning, nor would I want to say I support him without knowing that much about him, but at least he wasn't for the war.
At my school I had the pleasure of a young guy asking me for help on his anti-Iraq war essay. He's in my class, and apparently he was from Afghanistan until he came here when he was 7 years old. He comes across just like any other American kid. Anyway, he said to me "the Declaration of Independence, Emancipation Proclamation, whatever...I think these rights we're supposed to have are being taken away. One day they will all be taken away."
What could I do but be impressed that someone so young and who obviously doesn't keep up with current events the way I do had already figured this out? What have the young people got to look forward to these days? It's like they never had a chance.
And I do believe it was Sarah who shed a spotlight on the fact that the FCC have indeed rolled back the restrictions on media ownership. Now one company can own all the media in one geographic area. TV stations, newspapers, radio. It is sick sick sick sick sick sick sick, and really not too far off from state-run media, when you think about it. ONE point of view. It's time for Congress to step in. The Future of Music Coalition is working hard on this issue. If you wanna do something about it, write your Reps or Senators, or check out the FMC website.
End of rant.
War is hell, so how can people forget that fact, when it's been proven so many times before? We aren't getting anywhere in Iraq and we won't get anywhere until we let them take over their own country.
I still say the silver lining in the cloud is the fact that no WMD's have been found. A lot of people in Washington are wringing their hands over that. But I don't want a Dem president who was for the war. That ought to be the most fundamental thing. People are talking about Howard Dean. I don't know his chances for winning, nor would I want to say I support him without knowing that much about him, but at least he wasn't for the war.
At my school I had the pleasure of a young guy asking me for help on his anti-Iraq war essay. He's in my class, and apparently he was from Afghanistan until he came here when he was 7 years old. He comes across just like any other American kid. Anyway, he said to me "the Declaration of Independence, Emancipation Proclamation, whatever...I think these rights we're supposed to have are being taken away. One day they will all be taken away."
What could I do but be impressed that someone so young and who obviously doesn't keep up with current events the way I do had already figured this out? What have the young people got to look forward to these days? It's like they never had a chance.
And I do believe it was Sarah who shed a spotlight on the fact that the FCC have indeed rolled back the restrictions on media ownership. Now one company can own all the media in one geographic area. TV stations, newspapers, radio. It is sick sick sick sick sick sick sick, and really not too far off from state-run media, when you think about it. ONE point of view. It's time for Congress to step in. The Future of Music Coalition is working hard on this issue. If you wanna do something about it, write your Reps or Senators, or check out the FMC website.
End of rant.
I'm glad the war is over.
Of course y'all agree. You guys agree on everything. I'll get pounded again now I'm sure but what was it someone said about the "hive mind". Was this ever really a place for diversity of opinion? I wonder. It doesn't matter whether I try to get all detailed and point out why I disagree or get hot and bothered or try to be succinct and diplomatic. I've found over and over again that if you really disagree with the majority opinion here, you're quashed as fastidiously as Rush Limbaugh on the Clinton presidency. I'm really beginning to think this place is about as 'fair & balanced' from the left wing of ideology as Fox News is for the right.
For all of your humanitarian rants and raves about Bush and the Iraqi war effort, have you ever once come up with any feasible alternative other than pascifism? Anyone speaking rationally will realize that no one ever thought the hostilities would end as soon as the bombs stopped dropping. Of course there is going to be more problems along the way. More people will die. But let me ask this ... and I've asked it before to no answer ... what would you have proposed for the Iraqi people as an alternative? Would you have preferred to have left them to the brutal dictator they had? Do you honestly believe that they are not better off even right at this minute? Could the dissent they are showing daily and the open complaints shouted on street corners have been tolerated before?? Which situation, with Sadaam or with his overthrow are the Iraqi citizens most likely get more quickly to democracy and freedom of expression and will???
It just flat out amazes me the hypocricy that goes on here on a daily basis. You want peace and traquility in the world but what do any of you do to truly help bring it about even if it's in the most minute way? Have any of you volunteered time at a soup kitchen? Perhaps given some time at a homeless shelter? Worked with the disabled? Donated even a quarter to famine relief? If you have, then good for you. Somehow I think though that most of you are much more likely to have driven your Amigos and danced to your techno music and inhaled from your bongs and snorted your white lines ... all while whining about the injustices of the world ... specifically of this country ... all while sitting on your damned collective asses and doing nothing to make it any better. How revolting.
Hive mind ... damned lazy ass whiny hive mind ...
myke
For all of your humanitarian rants and raves about Bush and the Iraqi war effort, have you ever once come up with any feasible alternative other than pascifism? Anyone speaking rationally will realize that no one ever thought the hostilities would end as soon as the bombs stopped dropping. Of course there is going to be more problems along the way. More people will die. But let me ask this ... and I've asked it before to no answer ... what would you have proposed for the Iraqi people as an alternative? Would you have preferred to have left them to the brutal dictator they had? Do you honestly believe that they are not better off even right at this minute? Could the dissent they are showing daily and the open complaints shouted on street corners have been tolerated before?? Which situation, with Sadaam or with his overthrow are the Iraqi citizens most likely get more quickly to democracy and freedom of expression and will???
It just flat out amazes me the hypocricy that goes on here on a daily basis. You want peace and traquility in the world but what do any of you do to truly help bring it about even if it's in the most minute way? Have any of you volunteered time at a soup kitchen? Perhaps given some time at a homeless shelter? Worked with the disabled? Donated even a quarter to famine relief? If you have, then good for you. Somehow I think though that most of you are much more likely to have driven your Amigos and danced to your techno music and inhaled from your bongs and snorted your white lines ... all while whining about the injustices of the world ... specifically of this country ... all while sitting on your damned collective asses and doing nothing to make it any better. How revolting.
Hive mind ... damned lazy ass whiny hive mind ...
myke
I'm glad the war is over.
PS -- No offense, Rabbit but calling Oh the Sloth "Slothy" sounds like a pet name for a lover. It's a little to cute for a guy to a guy.
I'm glad the war is over.
it's okay to have an opinion differing from everyone else's Myke, it's just irritating when you are an inflexible asshole about your own and proceed to insult others in the process.
Nobody is wrong in having their opinion, yet you seem to want to verbally assault them for having one because they challenge yours.
I honestly think that it's damned if you do, damned if you don't on the whole war thing. I don't think we should be there because our excuse to do so was a big fat fucking lie. It has nothing to do with what happened on 9/11 and everything to do with Bush's personal vendetta against Hussein, who I will say, is a horrible monster of a man. However, to lead people into battle, you need to be a true leader. And that means having true respect from the people who are doing battle for you. I don't think our soldiers are there for Bush, but for our country. They'd kick his redneck ass given the chance, I'm sure. Because he is not a good leader and he lied on his intentions for going into Iraq in the first place.
Iraq did need help, but I'm not sure we gave them the help they needed. We took out an opressive leader and now, who's to say what will happen? It's not going to be in the best interests of the people who live there. I can tell you that right now.
Go ahead baby, take away my stars. I've still got the beautiful evening sky to look at.
Nobody is wrong in having their opinion, yet you seem to want to verbally assault them for having one because they challenge yours.
I honestly think that it's damned if you do, damned if you don't on the whole war thing. I don't think we should be there because our excuse to do so was a big fat fucking lie. It has nothing to do with what happened on 9/11 and everything to do with Bush's personal vendetta against Hussein, who I will say, is a horrible monster of a man. However, to lead people into battle, you need to be a true leader. And that means having true respect from the people who are doing battle for you. I don't think our soldiers are there for Bush, but for our country. They'd kick his redneck ass given the chance, I'm sure. Because he is not a good leader and he lied on his intentions for going into Iraq in the first place.
Iraq did need help, but I'm not sure we gave them the help they needed. We took out an opressive leader and now, who's to say what will happen? It's not going to be in the best interests of the people who live there. I can tell you that right now.
Go ahead baby, take away my stars. I've still got the beautiful evening sky to look at.
I'm glad the war is over.
Damn .. another person cursing me. Hell which is worse ... a "cold motherfucker" ... or an "inflexible asshole".
H ..... Just for the record, I'm no more inflexible than anyone else here. There's not a soul here who seems to be the slightest bit flexible when it comes to their point of view on something like the Iraqi war. I didn't vote for Bush and I'll certainly agree that the rationale that he proposed for the initial hostilities were way off par. And certainly if it was all just about taking out a brutal government, somebody should have stepped in to the Congo years ago instead of waiting until over 1 million have been killed. Hell, now even the French are stepping in to try to ease that situation.
Another thing, H. ... I only get defensive and appear to you to want to verbally assault as it's sure as hell been done to me over and over. It doesn't matter if I try to be diplomatic or detailed in my opinions ... which I tried to do at first ... just because I disagreed with the prevailing Pax point of view, I was pretty much blasted out of the water from the get go.
As for the stars thing .... I don't care how many stars you have. If any one person is likely here to be at rock bottom on that, it's certainly me. However, I've never been one to much give a shi-aht about popularity polls.
You're right about one thing. Who can truly read a crystal ball and tell how Iraq will look a few years from now. I'll disagree, politely, with you on whether or not it will be in the Iraqi people's best interest. They will eventually at least have the opportunity to decide things for themselves. Hell ... the sheer fact that they are doing so in some areas of their lives is more than they were able to do under Sadaam.
myke
H ..... Just for the record, I'm no more inflexible than anyone else here. There's not a soul here who seems to be the slightest bit flexible when it comes to their point of view on something like the Iraqi war. I didn't vote for Bush and I'll certainly agree that the rationale that he proposed for the initial hostilities were way off par. And certainly if it was all just about taking out a brutal government, somebody should have stepped in to the Congo years ago instead of waiting until over 1 million have been killed. Hell, now even the French are stepping in to try to ease that situation.
Another thing, H. ... I only get defensive and appear to you to want to verbally assault as it's sure as hell been done to me over and over. It doesn't matter if I try to be diplomatic or detailed in my opinions ... which I tried to do at first ... just because I disagreed with the prevailing Pax point of view, I was pretty much blasted out of the water from the get go.
As for the stars thing .... I don't care how many stars you have. If any one person is likely here to be at rock bottom on that, it's certainly me. However, I've never been one to much give a shi-aht about popularity polls.
You're right about one thing. Who can truly read a crystal ball and tell how Iraq will look a few years from now. I'll disagree, politely, with you on whether or not it will be in the Iraqi people's best interest. They will eventually at least have the opportunity to decide things for themselves. Hell ... the sheer fact that they are doing so in some areas of their lives is more than they were able to do under Sadaam.
myke
I'm glad the war is over.
The stars thing was a joke honey, well... kind of. I'm just seeing how long it takes to lose them. I was honest about the evening sky cause I think that they're even on here is funny.
As long as my K, cat, and snakes love me... all is good. Well, I'd like that mom and dad do to.
I thank you for your kindness in your answer but it was not necessary. I'm sure you know if I REALLY thought you sucked, I'd go off a little more. Realize though, I've read what you write when your hackles are raised and you can be an inflexible bastard and lash out for unknown reasons.
Tell me, what kind of government do you think will develop from what we did over there? Honestly.
I think it will take a lot longer than originally projected if we DO actually let them be to figure it out.
Mind you, I don't think that is what's going to happen. But I'd like to hear your take.
As long as my K, cat, and snakes love me... all is good. Well, I'd like that mom and dad do to.
I thank you for your kindness in your answer but it was not necessary. I'm sure you know if I REALLY thought you sucked, I'd go off a little more. Realize though, I've read what you write when your hackles are raised and you can be an inflexible bastard and lash out for unknown reasons.
Tell me, what kind of government do you think will develop from what we did over there? Honestly.
I think it will take a lot longer than originally projected if we DO actually let them be to figure it out.
Mind you, I don't think that is what's going to happen. But I'd like to hear your take.
I'm glad the war is over.
I wish I had more white lines and valium to help me forget the hypocrisies of the world. Mickey, Rabby, and Marty are invited. Mykey has to stay home and feed his Jesus compex. Mavy can light candles and go to the Sting concert or come along if he wants a thrill.
As McCutcheon stated ask any typical Iraqi who they want to rule their country... Bush or Saddam... and they will pick Saddam. It's not that there are injustices... it's just that after all it is their country... no matter how fucked up it may be.
Lucky me I'll be in Sweden forever when all the crazy GIs come home and realize they were lied to by Uncle Sam again and seek revenge.... like Timothy McVeigh and the Sniper and Oswald and all the other crazy ex-marines I meet in bars...
We train our boys to kill kill kill... just like Daddy did to them damn indians and commie rice farmers. WMD are perfectly legal when used by the USA.
Make no mistake... Bush is a religious leader... he is the legacy of Reagan... a man who 100% believed God put him the White House. Bush talkks about his faith so much you either have to believe he is totally loony or that he is the best liar in the US. What would God possibly see in that beady-eyed crew in the White House?
My government is a den of self-righteous thieves. God has bad taste in governmental leaders.
As McCutcheon stated ask any typical Iraqi who they want to rule their country... Bush or Saddam... and they will pick Saddam. It's not that there are injustices... it's just that after all it is their country... no matter how fucked up it may be.
Lucky me I'll be in Sweden forever when all the crazy GIs come home and realize they were lied to by Uncle Sam again and seek revenge.... like Timothy McVeigh and the Sniper and Oswald and all the other crazy ex-marines I meet in bars...
We train our boys to kill kill kill... just like Daddy did to them damn indians and commie rice farmers. WMD are perfectly legal when used by the USA.
Make no mistake... Bush is a religious leader... he is the legacy of Reagan... a man who 100% believed God put him the White House. Bush talkks about his faith so much you either have to believe he is totally loony or that he is the best liar in the US. What would God possibly see in that beady-eyed crew in the White House?
My government is a den of self-righteous thieves. God has bad taste in governmental leaders.
I'm glad the war is over.
Funny that I would be referred to as having a Jesus complex considering how un-religious I am. Oohy, if you had more valium and cocaine to help you forget all of the hypocricies of the world would that include the world of Pax Acidus hypocricy that is typed on to this board on a weekly basis?
You know, I've said before that some people from here would likely spontaneously combust from their sheer hatred of me if I were to walk into the room with them. I guess I'll have to add the revered sloth to that list. Me... I hate no one. I can disagree with people all day long ... but sooner or later you just have to shut up and go have a good beer together.
The thing with Bush is ... no matter what, he'll be out of office in a few years. This country has rotated from one party in the White House to another over and over. It'll happen again. Personally, I'd prefer that former Gen. Wesley Clarke would run as a Dem. He's one of the few that might could take out Bush next year. Howard Dean sure can't.
I don't think the average Iraqi wants Bush or Sadaam or any other figure they'd perceive as a dictator running their nation ad infinitum. Truly not. Difference being ... had Sadaam stayed in power he would likely have lived another 30 years and then like Hafez Assad in Syria power would then pass on to one of his despot sons. At least now, Bush won't be in office here for more than a few more years much less calling the shots there. We might have troups there longer than I or the Iraqi citizens would like but they'll get to ruling themselves much quicker under the current situation than they would have had Sadaam been allowed to stay in power. Can anyone here honestly deny this fact?
H ... I've no expert on 'nation building' but I am a student of history. Looking at the past century from the 20s to the 90s, the U.S. has been involved in it more than anyone would have liked. Sometimes successfully (think Germany, Japan, S. Korea -- all have thrived, all of their gov'ts post conflict were administered and then left to the citizens by the U.S. government), sometimes disastrously (Vietnam, Somalia). In the case of Iraq, I think the worst case scenario would be for us to leave after their government was up and running and then hardline Islamists taking over and oppressing the people in the manner of the current Iranian government (which may crack under it's own weight due to a student movement ... maybe). Best case ... I'd say we'll be there .... heavily be there ... a minimum of 5 years. An English style Parliamentary government will likely ensue. They'll end up with all factions in Parliament from the right wing hard line religious parties that will form to middle of the road moderates to secular left of center parties. Many Arabs would curse me for saying this but I think their government will most likely end up looking like an Arab version of the Israeli government. Israel's government is based on the English system and has widely, widely varying points of view represented there. From those who would establish a Jewish orthodox state to the secularists. Power there has also swung in both directions mostly between the right wing Likhud party and the more moderate Labor of assasinated former PM Yitzhak Rabin. I think the government that will end up in Iraq will be similar. All factions represented with policy ending up somewhere close to the middle. The mideast is a volatile area. No doubt. But the Serbs and Croats and Bosnia Muslims all hate each other pretty bad to and that situation is doing ok.
myke
PS - Oohy Slothy ..... I'll agree with you on one thing. We will see another major terrorist attack in this country in the next few years. But so will Europe and probably Austrailia and Canada I'd bet. If you feel that you'd be safer in Sweden, have at it. It's a free country after all ....
You know, I've said before that some people from here would likely spontaneously combust from their sheer hatred of me if I were to walk into the room with them. I guess I'll have to add the revered sloth to that list. Me... I hate no one. I can disagree with people all day long ... but sooner or later you just have to shut up and go have a good beer together.
The thing with Bush is ... no matter what, he'll be out of office in a few years. This country has rotated from one party in the White House to another over and over. It'll happen again. Personally, I'd prefer that former Gen. Wesley Clarke would run as a Dem. He's one of the few that might could take out Bush next year. Howard Dean sure can't.
I don't think the average Iraqi wants Bush or Sadaam or any other figure they'd perceive as a dictator running their nation ad infinitum. Truly not. Difference being ... had Sadaam stayed in power he would likely have lived another 30 years and then like Hafez Assad in Syria power would then pass on to one of his despot sons. At least now, Bush won't be in office here for more than a few more years much less calling the shots there. We might have troups there longer than I or the Iraqi citizens would like but they'll get to ruling themselves much quicker under the current situation than they would have had Sadaam been allowed to stay in power. Can anyone here honestly deny this fact?
H ... I've no expert on 'nation building' but I am a student of history. Looking at the past century from the 20s to the 90s, the U.S. has been involved in it more than anyone would have liked. Sometimes successfully (think Germany, Japan, S. Korea -- all have thrived, all of their gov'ts post conflict were administered and then left to the citizens by the U.S. government), sometimes disastrously (Vietnam, Somalia). In the case of Iraq, I think the worst case scenario would be for us to leave after their government was up and running and then hardline Islamists taking over and oppressing the people in the manner of the current Iranian government (which may crack under it's own weight due to a student movement ... maybe). Best case ... I'd say we'll be there .... heavily be there ... a minimum of 5 years. An English style Parliamentary government will likely ensue. They'll end up with all factions in Parliament from the right wing hard line religious parties that will form to middle of the road moderates to secular left of center parties. Many Arabs would curse me for saying this but I think their government will most likely end up looking like an Arab version of the Israeli government. Israel's government is based on the English system and has widely, widely varying points of view represented there. From those who would establish a Jewish orthodox state to the secularists. Power there has also swung in both directions mostly between the right wing Likhud party and the more moderate Labor of assasinated former PM Yitzhak Rabin. I think the government that will end up in Iraq will be similar. All factions represented with policy ending up somewhere close to the middle. The mideast is a volatile area. No doubt. But the Serbs and Croats and Bosnia Muslims all hate each other pretty bad to and that situation is doing ok.
myke
PS - Oohy Slothy ..... I'll agree with you on one thing. We will see another major terrorist attack in this country in the next few years. But so will Europe and probably Austrailia and Canada I'd bet. If you feel that you'd be safer in Sweden, have at it. It's a free country after all ....