I'd put you up but I'm on the wrong coast.
I was thinking this morning about ther percentages that several have listed as causes why Bush is pushing for war. I don't really have a guess as to what percentages I'd hypothesize at but I do have thoughts as to what would be the primary motivation behind any US led war with Iraq.
It starts with regime change (no matter what the administration says) and ends with economic prosperity. And I think the overemphasis on oil is just that. I believe it's bigger than oil. You see, political instability in a major region of the world can lead to economic downturns for the major economic powers. Get rid of the unstable government, try to impose a more stable one and economic times get better. I could point out many examples of this happening throughout the previous century. It happened in Europe after the fall of Hitler and Mussolini. Happened in Japan after we installed a government around a parliamentary framework. The iron curtain falls in Eastern Europe and many of those nations are becoming much, much more well off economically and dare I say wealthy (Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Croatia, and the Czech Republic come to mind specifically). The former Yugoslav republics are certainly much better off after NATO stepped in. Hell, look at the difference over the last 50 years in how the two Koreas have fared. Easily arguable that the southern half did much better under a model of government installed by the US based upon the Japenese framework.
Oil maybe the biggest economic benefit a friendly Iraqi governement would have to offer. But ... it's MUCH more involved than that. A healthy and stable Iraqi nation would be a friend to the west, would likely end up being a new outlet for exportation of western goods, etc. etc. It's a giant domino effect.
Certainly I'm not trying to say economics is a good rationale for the impending war ... I do believe it's impending. I simply don't think it's quite as cut and dried as some seem to think. For me, the getting back for his dad and such are non-issues. It's all about global economics.
Final thought.... I know many here are rallying behind the Germans, French, Russians, and Belgians as being proof that world opinion as a whole is against invading Iraq. What do you think, however, about all the other nations who have expressed support to the US government. It's not just the UK. Add in Italy, Spain, Poland, Lithuania, Lativia, Estonia, Portugal, Turkey, Greece, Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia, and the Czech Republic are just a few. Lots of people protesting as has been pointed out. Lots of people in support though too.
I am not yet firmly for or against this war. I do think it's going to happen. I just hope that everyone doesn'nt start throwing stones at the young men and women who will die on both sides for causes they believe are just. Soilders are not politicians. They are not mindless drones either.
myke
fucking with gw bush
-
<sarah>
fucking with gw bush
hi myke -- my hubby is former military. We're finally agreeing to disagree until we both understand, and I'm reading Gandhi's memoirs to him a little chunk at a time. I found this on the net -- thought you might be interested.
Teach-in/Vigil
Wednesday, February 19th 2003 12:00 to 6:30 PM
Conway, South Carolina
Starting @ Noon on the COSTAL CAROLINA UNIVERSITY campus there will be a teach-in, followed by a Candlelight vigil. Open to ALL who wish for peace. Sponsosres by Students for Peace.
Location: Costal Carolina University Conway South Carolina
Contact: Jason Ferrante JAFERRANTE@Costal.edu (843) 997-6215
Sponsored By: Students for Peace @ Costal Carolina Uiversity, Conway, South Carolina. http://www.jaferrante@costal.edu
Teach-in/Vigil
Wednesday, February 19th 2003 12:00 to 6:30 PM
Conway, South Carolina
Starting @ Noon on the COSTAL CAROLINA UNIVERSITY campus there will be a teach-in, followed by a Candlelight vigil. Open to ALL who wish for peace. Sponsosres by Students for Peace.
Location: Costal Carolina University Conway South Carolina
Contact: Jason Ferrante JAFERRANTE@Costal.edu (843) 997-6215
Sponsored By: Students for Peace @ Costal Carolina Uiversity, Conway, South Carolina. http://www.jaferrante@costal.edu
fucking with gw bush
A message to anyone about to enter Gulf War II...
I hope you like depleted uranium as much as the US military commanders do!
This is nuclear war folks.
When a depleted uranium shell hits an object it explodes internally. When it sails through an object like a tank it fries everything inside. When the US troops march in afterwards they inhale the stuff and get sick for the rest of their lives. When pregnant Iraqis inhale it they have deformed babies.
The US government does not love its soldiers. They do not love Iraq's poor. The only thing they love is crude oil reserves.
Do not believe the hype Myke that this war is about liberating anything but Bush's bank account.
I hope you like depleted uranium as much as the US military commanders do!
This is nuclear war folks.
When a depleted uranium shell hits an object it explodes internally. When it sails through an object like a tank it fries everything inside. When the US troops march in afterwards they inhale the stuff and get sick for the rest of their lives. When pregnant Iraqis inhale it they have deformed babies.
The US government does not love its soldiers. They do not love Iraq's poor. The only thing they love is crude oil reserves.
Do not believe the hype Myke that this war is about liberating anything but Bush's bank account.
fucking with gw bush
In case any of you think Im making this shit up...
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/du.htm
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm
http://www.cadu.org.uk/
http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/du/
http://www.stopnato.org.uk/du-watch/
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/du.htm
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm
http://www.cadu.org.uk/
http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/du/
http://www.stopnato.org.uk/du-watch/
fucking with gw bush
At this point I'm not even praying for peace for peace's sake. I'm just realizing how silly it is resource wise for us to blow all this money fighting Saddam when he and Iraq are not even where the danger lies. No war funds are included in any of
the budgets they are turning out. No numbers.
Huge deficit, HUGE even without any Iraq war dollars included. Hey, if they're going to war and I can't stop it, well then I have to accept that, but
it seems so stupid when N. Korea and Terrorists are probably breathing down our backs.
Anyway did you all hear about the London traffic experiment? I was impressed.
The only thing left for a person to do is get on with their lives.
Look forward to seeing you McC. Sorry about the "mean cut" on PIL, if that didn't hit you right.
I can explain. Anyway I just think the first PIL album has got to be one of my favorite records ever. The second isn't bad either. Those two records. Public Image Ltd. John Lydon the whole bit.
Julia will be around? That's great.
the budgets they are turning out. No numbers.
Huge deficit, HUGE even without any Iraq war dollars included. Hey, if they're going to war and I can't stop it, well then I have to accept that, but
it seems so stupid when N. Korea and Terrorists are probably breathing down our backs.
Anyway did you all hear about the London traffic experiment? I was impressed.
The only thing left for a person to do is get on with their lives.
Look forward to seeing you McC. Sorry about the "mean cut" on PIL, if that didn't hit you right.
I can explain. Anyway I just think the first PIL album has got to be one of my favorite records ever. The second isn't bad either. Those two records. Public Image Ltd. John Lydon the whole bit.
Julia will be around? That's great.
fucking with gw bush
I shall have to read up on depleted uranium via the websites Sloth posted. I don't know much about that subject.
I'm of the frame of mind that the war maybe inevitable. I may be wrong.
Kim Jong Ill is way crazier than his dad before him as leader of North Korea. He definitely scares me. I heard on the news this morning that is now saying he may pull out of the armistice treaty that officially ended the conflict on the Korean peninsula. He could cause us and the South Koreans much more damage than Sadaam. He could lob an archaic scud over the border into Seoul or into the demilitarized zone where we have 37,000 troops stationed.
myke
I'm of the frame of mind that the war maybe inevitable. I may be wrong.
Kim Jong Ill is way crazier than his dad before him as leader of North Korea. He definitely scares me. I heard on the news this morning that is now saying he may pull out of the armistice treaty that officially ended the conflict on the Korean peninsula. He could cause us and the South Koreans much more damage than Sadaam. He could lob an archaic scud over the border into Seoul or into the demilitarized zone where we have 37,000 troops stationed.
myke
fucking with gw bush
I read an article that said it was quite possible he had the capability to reach the west coast with nuclear weapons. Cheerful isn't it?
fucking with gw bush
Americans live in fear of nothing. The enemy is within our borders.
fucking with gw bush
i hope bush knows that if he starts this war without UN support, he will according to the UN charter have the status of a war criminal.
this isn't as absurd as it sounds. remember what happened to pinochet when he went visiting england in 2000. the world goes on an unexpected course sometimes, and i wouldn't be surprised if someone fixed bush's wagon sometime around the year 2022.
this isn't as absurd as it sounds. remember what happened to pinochet when he went visiting england in 2000. the world goes on an unexpected course sometimes, and i wouldn't be surprised if someone fixed bush's wagon sometime around the year 2022.
fucking with gw bush
Yes, I actually remember Augusto Pinochet being bound for trial. Didn't he end up getting off due to ill health? I can' t remember.
Big difference between Chile' and the US. From a pragmatic perspective, I'd have to say even 20 years from now it'd be unlikely the UN would go after an ex-US president if for no other reason than we wield veto power.
Times do change though.
myke
Big difference between Chile' and the US. From a pragmatic perspective, I'd have to say even 20 years from now it'd be unlikely the UN would go after an ex-US president if for no other reason than we wield veto power.
Times do change though.
myke
fucking with gw bush
(myke, ooh: i am glad, and am strongly benefiting, from the input you guys are posting. thanks!)
anyway:
our discussion here is amounting to this.
what is this iraq thing about? an imperialist land-grab? or is saddam some kind of mini-hitler who has to be contained, changed, destroyed? (to use nixon's parlance, he used to be "our son of a bitch"; do we need a new son of a bitch to replace him?)
the guardian asked the best british historians i know about analogies and parallels: is this 1939 or is it vietnam or the suez crisis? (or maybe the fucking boer war?)
you can find their opinions here
anyway:
our discussion here is amounting to this.
what is this iraq thing about? an imperialist land-grab? or is saddam some kind of mini-hitler who has to be contained, changed, destroyed? (to use nixon's parlance, he used to be "our son of a bitch"; do we need a new son of a bitch to replace him?)
the guardian asked the best british historians i know about analogies and parallels: is this 1939 or is it vietnam or the suez crisis? (or maybe the fucking boer war?)
you can find their opinions here