So I've been bantering back and forth with Sloth the past couple of days on another thread and have been feeling kinda frustrated. You see, I don't hate Sloth or think he's "ignorant" (as he called me) because I disagree with him. Nor do I hate Martino even though he thinks I'm a "cold motherfucker". I've tried to refrain from saying such things back. Always tried to be balanced and objective. Wasn't workin' around here and couldn't figure out why.
Then a while ago I went into the other room to surf some channels in between chapters of this book I was reading and I landed on the Fox News Channel. They were showing an episode of Hannity & Combs the right/left type debate show that is really all about Hannity's right wing attitudes. He was exhalting the praises of George W. as usual and heaping hate on the current field of democratic contenders for next year's race. Then it hit me. That's just like what I experience in reverse on Pax Acidus. You can get buy with disagreeing on books, movies, and maybe even music. However, you can't really disagree on political ideology here and be fully accepted. The BofBB is a playground for those who basically agree with one another. You say you accept diversity (at least McCutcheon said that to me once) but do you really? Don't you really want folks who pat you on the back and raise a drink in confirmation of every idea and philosophy you espouse? I've seen it over and over and I really believe it to be true. People who disagree here have been few and far between. I've been one of them. And from my personal experience, it hasn't mattered what tact I've tried, no matter how objective I've tried to be, no matter how hot I got or calm I remained ... the reaction has always been the same. Sloth, Mc, Mark, Martino ... one or more ... bash me, call me a name, and/or rally the troops to crush whatever I've said. Is that the way to promote free thought and the exchange of diverse opinions and points of view? I think in the negative here, guys. In essence, there really is no room here at Pax for dissenting points of view unless you like being made to feel like a lower life form on a regular basis. It may not be the sole reason, but perhaps this has contributed to the "dull as dishwater" phase everyone seems to feel the board has gotten to. Who wants to really enter a debate just to get cursed at and called names??? I need no flash backs of junior high. When that kind of attitude prevails, those who don't agree with the majority just start staying silent. If being constantly in agreement or keeping my mouth shut rather than risk a full scale onslought is the only way I'll fit in around here ... then perhaps I simply misjudged the nature of the group and have to realize I'll never really be looked at other than an abberation against the norm.
myke
PS - And McCutcheon never did get me that Johnny Cash mix of his faves ... what's up with that???
I think I finally get it!
I think I finally get it!
Personally, I love you posts. I also agree with a lot of your statements and would love to back you up, it's just my typing is so shitty and my attention span so short that after I bang out 20 or 30 words it's time run off and chase a butterfly.
I think I finally get it!
im glad im not the only one who chases butterflies.
I think I finally get it!
Myke, I've said before, I tend to agree with most of what you say politically, and I consider those others who disagree with us (the ones I've actually met, anyway) friends. They know my views, I know theirs, and we agree to disagree. I have had political discussions with Sloth and Mc over beers, or just stone cold sober, and I have found them to be intelligent and articulate. I often see their side of the argument too, as you do. None of us here particularly like the way that GW has been handling things, but you and I seem to be among the minority who don't immediately disdain the US and all of it's leaders because of it.
I said a few months ago that one of the best current American leaders has been ignored, chastised for his dissenting opinions on the strategy used in attacking Iraq, and had his influence gradually stripped away because he failed to toe the Bush line. That person is Colin Powell, and I maintain that if his opinions and strategies been listened to, there would be many fewer anti-American nations right now.
I hate the negative things that the US has done all over the world, but I am proud of some of the good things. Let's not always focus on the death and destruction. What about the medicines and technology that have saved lives and improved lives all over the world that were developed right here, by Americans? Sure, maybe our government could be a bit more philanthropic and give more of these things to countries that can't pay for them, but sometimes they do.
Regardless of the negative record for foreign policy that is being dragged out now when mistakes have been made, let's remember the benfits of the relative prosperity and quality of life afforded to North Americans (I'm including Canada for you Brett). This quality of life and relative economic and political stability has brought advances in science, medicine, and art. These advances have touched the rest of the world, sometimes helping them, sometimes making them jealous of us.
To those who have given up on the integrity of the US and forgotten (or Ignored) the positive contributions Americans and even sometimes the American government have made, I feel sorry. There are millions of people all over the world wishing that they had some of the advantages we have, vowing that if they ever attain them, that they will make their world a better place.
Myke, personally, I'm trying to ride out this whole Bush thing, praying to whatever gods may be that he doesn't win another term, and also praying that if he doesn't we don't get someone just as far left as he is right. We need someone who can find a balance. My dream administration would understand that America should be a world leader, not a bully, and understand what that means. This fictional government would also understand the plight of people at home and abroad, and work to increase peace and prosperity everywhere, because they would know that these things are what makes good politics.
Maybe the main difference between my opinions and Sloth's is that I still believe that America can, and will, produce such an administration. I don't even focus solely on the president, because in many ways, he is just a mouthpiece for what the polls say people want to hear. I believe that in my lifetime, leaders will emerge who are tolerant, strong, well rounded and intelligent. I believe they will be Americans, and that I will be more proud of my country than ever before.
I said a few months ago that one of the best current American leaders has been ignored, chastised for his dissenting opinions on the strategy used in attacking Iraq, and had his influence gradually stripped away because he failed to toe the Bush line. That person is Colin Powell, and I maintain that if his opinions and strategies been listened to, there would be many fewer anti-American nations right now.
I hate the negative things that the US has done all over the world, but I am proud of some of the good things. Let's not always focus on the death and destruction. What about the medicines and technology that have saved lives and improved lives all over the world that were developed right here, by Americans? Sure, maybe our government could be a bit more philanthropic and give more of these things to countries that can't pay for them, but sometimes they do.
Regardless of the negative record for foreign policy that is being dragged out now when mistakes have been made, let's remember the benfits of the relative prosperity and quality of life afforded to North Americans (I'm including Canada for you Brett). This quality of life and relative economic and political stability has brought advances in science, medicine, and art. These advances have touched the rest of the world, sometimes helping them, sometimes making them jealous of us.
To those who have given up on the integrity of the US and forgotten (or Ignored) the positive contributions Americans and even sometimes the American government have made, I feel sorry. There are millions of people all over the world wishing that they had some of the advantages we have, vowing that if they ever attain them, that they will make their world a better place.
Myke, personally, I'm trying to ride out this whole Bush thing, praying to whatever gods may be that he doesn't win another term, and also praying that if he doesn't we don't get someone just as far left as he is right. We need someone who can find a balance. My dream administration would understand that America should be a world leader, not a bully, and understand what that means. This fictional government would also understand the plight of people at home and abroad, and work to increase peace and prosperity everywhere, because they would know that these things are what makes good politics.
Maybe the main difference between my opinions and Sloth's is that I still believe that America can, and will, produce such an administration. I don't even focus solely on the president, because in many ways, he is just a mouthpiece for what the polls say people want to hear. I believe that in my lifetime, leaders will emerge who are tolerant, strong, well rounded and intelligent. I believe they will be Americans, and that I will be more proud of my country than ever before.
I think I finally get it!
so then... give me the scoop on howard dean. i am too busy to educate myself. any ideas?
I think I finally get it!
Myke I called you "ignorant" because you don't even seem to read my responses to you. You "ignore" things I say over and over again.
I never meant to say your were "ignorant" in the common parlance which means stupid. I don't call people stupid. I think its obvious enough when someone is being stupid. No need to draw attention to it.
The thing that put me over the edge was when I wrote we killed millions in Vietnam and you said "prove it" and I backed it up with 20 resources and then you said "Why do you mention Vietnam? We weren't even born yet". That pissed me off because it proved to be about the third time you criticized me, I presented the facts, and then you did not recant. It proved you hadn't read the friggin thread you were commenting on. That was the reading comprehension gag I made.
As for Pax not being objective politically, that is not even a joke. I will not speak for Mc. We are not a hive mind. We are just two guys who love to write and drink. I have been very patient with you but you seem like a lost cause. Sorry, I won't even try anymore.
I have been against this war and against the last one and the one before that. I am against all of them. America says it wants international support but it is a lie. It seems to be run by a bunch of crazy Christian assholes pushing for Armageddon. I won't be a part of that.
I never meant to say your were "ignorant" in the common parlance which means stupid. I don't call people stupid. I think its obvious enough when someone is being stupid. No need to draw attention to it.
The thing that put me over the edge was when I wrote we killed millions in Vietnam and you said "prove it" and I backed it up with 20 resources and then you said "Why do you mention Vietnam? We weren't even born yet". That pissed me off because it proved to be about the third time you criticized me, I presented the facts, and then you did not recant. It proved you hadn't read the friggin thread you were commenting on. That was the reading comprehension gag I made.
As for Pax not being objective politically, that is not even a joke. I will not speak for Mc. We are not a hive mind. We are just two guys who love to write and drink. I have been very patient with you but you seem like a lost cause. Sorry, I won't even try anymore.
I have been against this war and against the last one and the one before that. I am against all of them. America says it wants international support but it is a lie. It seems to be run by a bunch of crazy Christian assholes pushing for Armageddon. I won't be a part of that.
I think I finally get it!
Brett ... you kill me. Ritalin maybe??? BTW ... speaking of Canadian rock stars ... I'm not a huge fan of all of their stuff but the lead singer of Default, Dallas Smith, has a phenomenal voice. He'll go far. And I can't help but like Sum41 and Simple Plan. Good music to sing loudly and probably bad to in the car.
Maverick ... well put. Very well written. Colloquial.
Thanks.
Rosie ... Howard Dean is the ex-Governor of the tiny state of Vermont. He is an old fashioned liberal in most ways and has been the only Democratic contender speak out forcefully from the beggining against the hostilities in Iraq. He also forcefully bashes Bush on a regular basis. He was considered an extreme long shot at first but then began to raise phenomenal amounts of money via his campaign's website on the 'net. He seems to be rallying the true left of the Democratic party in a similar manner that Bill Clinton did at first.
Sloth ... you are distorting ... or not reading throughly yourself ... what was said in the other thread. I said prove it to your statement about killing millions to prop up "hundreds of dictators". You were not specific about what conflict or area of the world you were referring to. Then, when you listed all the stats from the Vietnam era, my point was that you zeroed in on a specific conflict that occured over 30 years ago and I didn't get the purpose with respect to the current discussion. I, nor anyone else, could dispute the horrors of Vietnam. But to clarify ... I don't think you can zero in on such a conflict to justify your total hatred of everything US now. You also never placed one iota of proof of all those hundreds of dictators that we were propping up. I could probably name 5-10 myself ... but hundreds?
See ... you also made reference to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That, of course, occurred at the same time the Germans were putting people in gas chambers in their 2nd global conflict. However, I don't think any of us including you hate all Germans based upon that conflict that occured long ago. Also, if you really are looking at such a time frame, look at all of the billions of dollars the US poured into the Marshall Plan in rebuilding both the devastated Europe and Japan. How many nations would have did what we did for Japan after basically conquering them? We helped to build them into a stable, thriving democracy and Japan has since contributed to a lot of the world's wealth and technological advances. A similar reference can be made in regards to South Korea. Lord knows that conflict didn't go particularly well. However, had we not gone in and at least helped to prevent the entire peninsula from going the way of the North, would the entire nation look like the way North Korea does now ... a famished people ruled by a psychopathic despot? Which side would you say has turned out more positively .. North or South Korea? And yet, we don't rule either South Korea or Japan. They decide their politics and policies on their on. Also ... Taiwan. It's a thriving democracy regardless of the UN not officially recognizing it. If the US did not rattle sabres in defense of Taiwan, would that democracy exist today? No doubt mainland China would long have taken over the place had it not been for the fear of conflict with the US.
Not all of what the US does is bad. I agree with Maverick. We've contributed alot of good to the world along with some of the bad. I simply choose to hope that the good will inevitably prevail over the bad.
One thing that always gives me hope is to look at the historic trends in US politics. No matter how bad you hate one party or the other, neither stays in power for long. We all know that Bush will be gone within a limited timeframe. And I seriously don't think he will initiate armageddon before he goes. For such a large, diverse, and powerful nation (economically and militarily), it still is amazing to me how peacefully we are able to transfer power every few years from one party to the other ... each with wildly divergent points of view. I mean look at the differences between Carter to Reagan to Bush to Clinton to Bush Jr. It'll happen again. Just give it time.
Sloth, what were you exactly trying to be patient with me about? Was it a hope that perhaps a light would suddenly dawn in my mind and I'd come around to your way of thinking? Man ... sorry you think I'm a "lost cause" but all I ever expected was to be treated fairly, like an adult, and maybe to agree to disagree sometimes and still be able to have a beer with one another.
myke
Maverick ... well put. Very well written. Colloquial.
Thanks.
Rosie ... Howard Dean is the ex-Governor of the tiny state of Vermont. He is an old fashioned liberal in most ways and has been the only Democratic contender speak out forcefully from the beggining against the hostilities in Iraq. He also forcefully bashes Bush on a regular basis. He was considered an extreme long shot at first but then began to raise phenomenal amounts of money via his campaign's website on the 'net. He seems to be rallying the true left of the Democratic party in a similar manner that Bill Clinton did at first.
Sloth ... you are distorting ... or not reading throughly yourself ... what was said in the other thread. I said prove it to your statement about killing millions to prop up "hundreds of dictators". You were not specific about what conflict or area of the world you were referring to. Then, when you listed all the stats from the Vietnam era, my point was that you zeroed in on a specific conflict that occured over 30 years ago and I didn't get the purpose with respect to the current discussion. I, nor anyone else, could dispute the horrors of Vietnam. But to clarify ... I don't think you can zero in on such a conflict to justify your total hatred of everything US now. You also never placed one iota of proof of all those hundreds of dictators that we were propping up. I could probably name 5-10 myself ... but hundreds?
See ... you also made reference to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That, of course, occurred at the same time the Germans were putting people in gas chambers in their 2nd global conflict. However, I don't think any of us including you hate all Germans based upon that conflict that occured long ago. Also, if you really are looking at such a time frame, look at all of the billions of dollars the US poured into the Marshall Plan in rebuilding both the devastated Europe and Japan. How many nations would have did what we did for Japan after basically conquering them? We helped to build them into a stable, thriving democracy and Japan has since contributed to a lot of the world's wealth and technological advances. A similar reference can be made in regards to South Korea. Lord knows that conflict didn't go particularly well. However, had we not gone in and at least helped to prevent the entire peninsula from going the way of the North, would the entire nation look like the way North Korea does now ... a famished people ruled by a psychopathic despot? Which side would you say has turned out more positively .. North or South Korea? And yet, we don't rule either South Korea or Japan. They decide their politics and policies on their on. Also ... Taiwan. It's a thriving democracy regardless of the UN not officially recognizing it. If the US did not rattle sabres in defense of Taiwan, would that democracy exist today? No doubt mainland China would long have taken over the place had it not been for the fear of conflict with the US.
Not all of what the US does is bad. I agree with Maverick. We've contributed alot of good to the world along with some of the bad. I simply choose to hope that the good will inevitably prevail over the bad.
One thing that always gives me hope is to look at the historic trends in US politics. No matter how bad you hate one party or the other, neither stays in power for long. We all know that Bush will be gone within a limited timeframe. And I seriously don't think he will initiate armageddon before he goes. For such a large, diverse, and powerful nation (economically and militarily), it still is amazing to me how peacefully we are able to transfer power every few years from one party to the other ... each with wildly divergent points of view. I mean look at the differences between Carter to Reagan to Bush to Clinton to Bush Jr. It'll happen again. Just give it time.
Sloth, what were you exactly trying to be patient with me about? Was it a hope that perhaps a light would suddenly dawn in my mind and I'd come around to your way of thinking? Man ... sorry you think I'm a "lost cause" but all I ever expected was to be treated fairly, like an adult, and maybe to agree to disagree sometimes and still be able to have a beer with one another.
myke
I think I finally get it!
About Dean, I think it might be a mistake to call him an "old fashioned liberal". I read that his voting record is actually a lot more moderate than one would think, and I do know he likes "gun rights". It's just that his bashing of Bush, particularly on the subject of Iraq is galvanizing the left-wing of the democratic party, and from what I understand, a lot of young people as well. He is the only Dem prez candidate that didn't support the war.
I think I finally get it!
I have a really hard time getting excited about politicians lately... Dean seems like a good guy but look what happened the last time we had a reasonable person in the White House... the Iranians took hostages, gas prices doubled, and then we got Reagan after that. At least he won the Nobel Peace Prize.
Ever wonder what the last 3 years would be like if Ralph Nader was elected?
Ever wonder what the last 3 years would be like if Ralph Nader was elected?
I think I finally get it!
maybe myke thinks he gets it but i certainly don't get him. nobody said the US is bad or evil as such. nobody said myke is a cold motherfucker. there has been no name-calling beyond what i would experience during a nite on the town playing pool with my buddies.
what's the point in all this obfuscation? who needs the self-victimization and prissiness? i said myke's obsession with the "whininess" of pacifists while he is propagating war makes him sound like a cold motherfucker. is that so horribly insulting?
we have been talking about specific bad (you could say evil) policies of present and past US governments. why in the world does anybody respond by pointing out the US is leading in pharmaceutical progress? what rhetorical strategy lies behind repeating the obvious truth that the US is a "large, diverse, and powerful nation (economically and militarily)"? what is this, c fucking nn?
hopefully changing the subject:
september 11 beckons and it should be remembered that until 2001, this was known as the day of infamy on which, 30 years ago, the CIA used methods of terrorism to help topple a democratically-elected government.
the cia/pinochet files
what's the point in all this obfuscation? who needs the self-victimization and prissiness? i said myke's obsession with the "whininess" of pacifists while he is propagating war makes him sound like a cold motherfucker. is that so horribly insulting?
we have been talking about specific bad (you could say evil) policies of present and past US governments. why in the world does anybody respond by pointing out the US is leading in pharmaceutical progress? what rhetorical strategy lies behind repeating the obvious truth that the US is a "large, diverse, and powerful nation (economically and militarily)"? what is this, c fucking nn?
hopefully changing the subject:
september 11 beckons and it should be remembered that until 2001, this was known as the day of infamy on which, 30 years ago, the CIA used methods of terrorism to help topple a democratically-elected government.
the cia/pinochet files
I think I finally get it!
September 11 1943: Jewish Ghetto's of Minsk and Lida in Belarussia are 'liquidated'.
I think I finally get it!
Rumsfeld is on CNN telling people that Iraq could be a major tourist destination. Is he not paying attention?
I think I finally get it!
Maybe we can chip in and send Myke there to spread the good word about the USA.
I think I finally get it!
Martino ... yeah that was somewhat into horribly insulting. But hey, if nothing else I can tip my hat to anyone who can use the word 'obfuscation' correctly in a sentence. And .... you'll probably never get me as I rarely ever get myself (so to speak). Also ... that 'day of infamy' that the whole world associated September 11th with prior to 2001? Who are you seriously trying to kid? No one can say that toppleing a Chilean government is a fine thing but more are likely to have associated that day with Jessica Tandy having died that day in 1994 than with the events in Chile. Ask the average person ... even on the streets of Germany ... they won't have had a clue about what happened in Chile.
Hey, sloth ... start gathering all the pennies and I'll go. Be sure, though, to take up enough for two tickets, one for me, one for you. I'll extoll the virtues of the great and powerful America. You'll stand next to me while I do so as a fine example of how well off a guy can become living the American ideal. They'll take one look at you and assume anyone as soft and plump as yourself must be a very wealthy man. Or they may just figure you for your name sake - a sloth (i.e. Aversion to work or exertion; laziness; indolence. )
myke
Hey, sloth ... start gathering all the pennies and I'll go. Be sure, though, to take up enough for two tickets, one for me, one for you. I'll extoll the virtues of the great and powerful America. You'll stand next to me while I do so as a fine example of how well off a guy can become living the American ideal. They'll take one look at you and assume anyone as soft and plump as yourself must be a very wealthy man. Or they may just figure you for your name sake - a sloth (i.e. Aversion to work or exertion; laziness; indolence. )
myke