Mark,
I am kind of pushed for time so I can't go into the amount of detail I would like but bear with me on the salient points.
Firstly, please read and respond to what is printed up on the page. This is vital, as is sets the context and limits the debate. Secondly,if you are presenting an argument and are asked a question then not answering that question brings a whole avenue of inquiry to a close.
Right then. Could you please explain why. as I have previously outlined, you feel descriptions that begin with the words, (and again I quote directly) "good," "great," and "talented," are criticisms not compliments. Further to this, (because you said so in print) you should explain why those phrases are (and again I quote taking care not to put you out of context) "beyond what is reasonable.
I will try to be as clear as possible here. Evidence suggests that you think good, great and talented are all negative prefixes. (In the context that I used them) This leaves us with two conclusions. Either you did not fully read and remember the text to which you were replying (Which I characterised - I believe fairly - as poor reading comprehension) OR you have no idea what the words good, great and talented mean.
There is much more that I could write, however, time and space etc. Until you answer the above question you really shouldn't post again on this topic. I do encourage others to show me where I am missing the point though.
Elephant
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Tommy Martyn
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mccutcheon
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Elephant
This is all well and good, the art of debate, if I get it right, but let's not forget that we are under the sex drugs and rock and roll thread. Could you throw in a few phrases like, 'blowjob backstage', 'the guitar wailed and the kids were going crazy,' 'e is good and I'm dancing off my tits with this girl with beautiful tits' and 'blowjob stage left'.
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mccutcheon
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I know what you mean man, but I live a charmed life, such a wonderful life. I have lost count of all the beautiful blowjobs I have received. Now some pedantic might be whoa, McCutcheon, you want to be a writer, well you better get your grammar correct, a blowjob can't be beautiful, and to that pedant I say, you weren't there and oh yes they can be.
Elephant
I can't imagine the derision that the person would take, this imaginary person who would argue that blowjobs can't be beautiful. Certainly that wouldn't happen on THIS bb. No paxacidian would be that prudish.
Elephant
McC, you're far too critical of yourself. I can't see why it would be grammatically incorrect to say "blowjobs are beautiful".
Tom, I must also refer you to a post further up in this thread. My original response to your original post states "Your criticisms of him go a bit beyond what is reasonable:". I then proceed to address these criticisms, and you'll note (if your reading comprehension skills are up to scratch that is) that nowhere in that post do I attempt to address "good", "great" and "talented" as criticisms.
Although you began your post with those words, from then on you quickly descended into rather obvious negativity, and no one could read your post and come away with anything less than an overwhelmingly negative impression of what had been said, unless THEIR reading comprehension skills were poor. While I could care less if someone wants to criticize Buckley or any other musician, I will jump in and refute criticisms that are simply unreasonable, i.e. Jeff was a lousy swimmer, only had one half decent CD out (the implication being that he can be marginalized on that basis) etc.
Tom, I must also refer you to a post further up in this thread. My original response to your original post states "Your criticisms of him go a bit beyond what is reasonable:". I then proceed to address these criticisms, and you'll note (if your reading comprehension skills are up to scratch that is) that nowhere in that post do I attempt to address "good", "great" and "talented" as criticisms.
Although you began your post with those words, from then on you quickly descended into rather obvious negativity, and no one could read your post and come away with anything less than an overwhelmingly negative impression of what had been said, unless THEIR reading comprehension skills were poor. While I could care less if someone wants to criticize Buckley or any other musician, I will jump in and refute criticisms that are simply unreasonable, i.e. Jeff was a lousy swimmer, only had one half decent CD out (the implication being that he can be marginalized on that basis) etc.
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mccutcheon
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I was trying to lighten the mood. I made up the fact someone would critizie the word phrase 'blowjobs are beautiful'. I think the line 'Jeff was a bad swimer' was funny.
Anyway, I'm DJing a a party tonight. Mark I'll email you the address as soon as I get it.
I'm listening to b-sides of Hefner 1996-2000 and it is wonderful, like a blowjob. Great poetic words.
Anyway, I'm DJing a a party tonight. Mark I'll email you the address as soon as I get it.
I'm listening to b-sides of Hefner 1996-2000 and it is wonderful, like a blowjob. Great poetic words.
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Tommy Martyn
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Elephant
Mark,
time and space etc. I love the line, "I could care less if someone wants to criticize Buckley." Put your hand on your heart now. Is that really true.
time and space etc. I love the line, "I could care less if someone wants to criticize Buckley." Put your hand on your heart now. Is that really true.
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Tommy Martyn
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Elephant
Mark,
being positive seems to be a thing with you. Why? There is so much in this world to be to be negative about.
Back to the story. Criticisms is a plural, earlier in the thread I mentioned that in my world "half decent" is, indeed, a compliment. I also addressed lousy swimmer. I did also mention a couple of half baked notions that you entered into and ascribed to me, but whatever. Let's move on.
Specifically, let's move on to this battle of logic that I am losing. Mark, logic and insults are not, never have been and never will be, mutually exclusive. From the classics to sitcoms, a truth wrapped in wit and hurled at an adversary has been a highly, if not the most highly effective weapon. Examples are just too many to mention, but the work of Vaclav Havel who helped destroy an oppressive regime (The so called "Velvet Revolution") by hurling such barbs, would be the one with the most positive result, that I can think of, in modern times.
So, like (If Icould put myself in exalted company for a moment) Oscar Wilde,Evelyn Waugh and Dorothy Parker I think that the personal insults make the argument stronger. In this respect, I think your analysis is wrong.
Neither do I believe that arguments using logic alone are more interesting. This may be big on Vulcan but we humans would have to limit ourselves to higher mathematics, quantum physics etc. Now it seems to me that all the big intersting topics (Islamic theology versus post-enlightenment western democracy. Roe v Wade. U.S. v U.N.) and the small ones (Do you love me? Do I love you? Is Jeff Buckley an above average talent destined for cult icon staus due to the manner of his death? v I'm in denial about my love for a dead pop star?) can only be addressed fully using tools other than logic alone. So I can't bring myself to agree with you there either.
Lastly (and I suspect that you know this even though you wrote it) what Sorry have to go
being positive seems to be a thing with you. Why? There is so much in this world to be to be negative about.
Back to the story. Criticisms is a plural, earlier in the thread I mentioned that in my world "half decent" is, indeed, a compliment. I also addressed lousy swimmer. I did also mention a couple of half baked notions that you entered into and ascribed to me, but whatever. Let's move on.
Specifically, let's move on to this battle of logic that I am losing. Mark, logic and insults are not, never have been and never will be, mutually exclusive. From the classics to sitcoms, a truth wrapped in wit and hurled at an adversary has been a highly, if not the most highly effective weapon. Examples are just too many to mention, but the work of Vaclav Havel who helped destroy an oppressive regime (The so called "Velvet Revolution") by hurling such barbs, would be the one with the most positive result, that I can think of, in modern times.
So, like (If Icould put myself in exalted company for a moment) Oscar Wilde,Evelyn Waugh and Dorothy Parker I think that the personal insults make the argument stronger. In this respect, I think your analysis is wrong.
Neither do I believe that arguments using logic alone are more interesting. This may be big on Vulcan but we humans would have to limit ourselves to higher mathematics, quantum physics etc. Now it seems to me that all the big intersting topics (Islamic theology versus post-enlightenment western democracy. Roe v Wade. U.S. v U.N.) and the small ones (Do you love me? Do I love you? Is Jeff Buckley an above average talent destined for cult icon staus due to the manner of his death? v I'm in denial about my love for a dead pop star?) can only be addressed fully using tools other than logic alone. So I can't bring myself to agree with you there either.
Lastly (and I suspect that you know this even though you wrote it) what Sorry have to go
Elephant
Congratulations Tommy, that may be the first time in recorded history that Vaclav Havel and Vulcans were mentioned within a few lines of one another.
I think Mark and Tommy should book some network airtime and debate come next election season. Even if they're not really running for any office, and I'm not really sure who this Jeff Buckley guy is, it'll certainly beat listening to Bush butcher the english language as he spouts lame platitudes meant to arouse pride in middle-Americans while attempting to out-pose whichever last-minute sacrificial lamb the democrats come up with.
I think Mark and Tommy should book some network airtime and debate come next election season. Even if they're not really running for any office, and I'm not really sure who this Jeff Buckley guy is, it'll certainly beat listening to Bush butcher the english language as he spouts lame platitudes meant to arouse pride in middle-Americans while attempting to out-pose whichever last-minute sacrificial lamb the democrats come up with.
Elephant
Jeff Buckley ... his one album "Grace" was really good. He definitely had the potential to be a great, great songwriter. Who will ever know for sure, though? I have Grace but didn't buy any stuff they released after his death. Now he's relegated to what if status as just another almost great songwriter.
I get damned annoyed when a musician gets elevated to near saint status for having produced some good work and then ODd. Or in Cobain's case ... shot himself. Annoyed the hell out of me bigtime when Rolling Stone devoted a whole issue to him and annoited him the spokesman of Gen X. Fuck, Cobain and I were born in the same year. Life ain't that bad. All "Gen Xers" aren't melancholy tortured souls ... and don't need to be. Personally I think Dave Grohl turned out to be a much better musician and the Foo Fighters will last much longer than Nirvana could have.
myke
I get damned annoyed when a musician gets elevated to near saint status for having produced some good work and then ODd. Or in Cobain's case ... shot himself. Annoyed the hell out of me bigtime when Rolling Stone devoted a whole issue to him and annoited him the spokesman of Gen X. Fuck, Cobain and I were born in the same year. Life ain't that bad. All "Gen Xers" aren't melancholy tortured souls ... and don't need to be. Personally I think Dave Grohl turned out to be a much better musician and the Foo Fighters will last much longer than Nirvana could have.
myke
Elephant
Myke, why does obvious self-destructive talent annoy you so much and mediocrity so enthrall you?
Kurt was a great rock and roll personality and a great soulful artist.
Dave Grohl may currently be "King of the Summer Uk Festival Circuit" but frankly his albums bore me that way no Nirvana album could. He will be remembered as a drummer in a famous band.
I have no opinion on Jeff Buckley (but I will investigate!) but I say dying is not an artistic statement and suicide is not like drowning. It is caused by depression which is a disease as serious as any other.
I believe people OD by accident. All it takes is the wrong mood and the wrong drugs. Jimi H (who is buried less than 200 meters from where I live) certainly didn't want to die. Ditto nearly everyone else in the rock / addict category with the exception of JDM.
I think people want to die when they cannot express themselves and the pains get worse than the pleasures of life. But perhaps that is looking at it too logically. Self-criticism and ego suppression like Ian Curtis is running rampant? Isn't that the playgorund of disenchanted youth? Oh well I'm blathering now. Back to work.
Kurt was a great rock and roll personality and a great soulful artist.
Dave Grohl may currently be "King of the Summer Uk Festival Circuit" but frankly his albums bore me that way no Nirvana album could. He will be remembered as a drummer in a famous band.
I have no opinion on Jeff Buckley (but I will investigate!) but I say dying is not an artistic statement and suicide is not like drowning. It is caused by depression which is a disease as serious as any other.
I believe people OD by accident. All it takes is the wrong mood and the wrong drugs. Jimi H (who is buried less than 200 meters from where I live) certainly didn't want to die. Ditto nearly everyone else in the rock / addict category with the exception of JDM.
I think people want to die when they cannot express themselves and the pains get worse than the pleasures of life. But perhaps that is looking at it too logically. Self-criticism and ego suppression like Ian Curtis is running rampant? Isn't that the playgorund of disenchanted youth? Oh well I'm blathering now. Back to work.
Elephant
See ... that's the problem, Sloth. You can't get past the fact that your and others' opinions are just that. NOT facts. Just because you believe Cobain to be full of self destructive talent and to have been a tragic, angst filled musician whose suicide was nearly understandable due to his own overwhelming, tortuous view of life that the rest of us pions will never be privy to ... doesn't mean it's so. It's just your opinion. And of course, I'm sure Martino will chime in with his whole hearted agreement.
Just as the ever forsaken "obvious self destructive talent" is in the eye of the beholder, so is one's view of mediocrity. I like some seriousness in my music as well but some times a light hearted attitude with just good rock and roll music is what I need. Dave may be dull and boring to you but it's good music to me. Again ... all opinion. He bores you the same way the near reverant worship of dead, formerly self-involved musicians such as Kurt Cobain bore me. To me ... he will be remembered not for the genius you and some others think he had ... but in the end he is someone who was unable to handle the realities of life and took the easy road out leaving a small child in the hands of a drug happy mother. Blah to him.
I do not knock depression as a disease but don't assume in your sermon that I know nothing about it either. That would be a dead wrong assumption. I know it way more personally than I'd like.
People I'm sure don't OD intentionally. That would be a way oxymoron. However ... somehow it lessons their stature for me when they fall so easily to their own demons ...
myke
Just as the ever forsaken "obvious self destructive talent" is in the eye of the beholder, so is one's view of mediocrity. I like some seriousness in my music as well but some times a light hearted attitude with just good rock and roll music is what I need. Dave may be dull and boring to you but it's good music to me. Again ... all opinion. He bores you the same way the near reverant worship of dead, formerly self-involved musicians such as Kurt Cobain bore me. To me ... he will be remembered not for the genius you and some others think he had ... but in the end he is someone who was unable to handle the realities of life and took the easy road out leaving a small child in the hands of a drug happy mother. Blah to him.
I do not knock depression as a disease but don't assume in your sermon that I know nothing about it either. That would be a dead wrong assumption. I know it way more personally than I'd like.
People I'm sure don't OD intentionally. That would be a way oxymoron. However ... somehow it lessons their stature for me when they fall so easily to their own demons ...
myke