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mccutcheon
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I was at the QFC on Broadway and a girl all dressed in black had Jeff Buckely tatooed on her arm, no picture or color, just his name. I thought of you Mark.
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Tommy Martyn
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A good looking kid with a great voice and one half decent CD. Can't think of a better reason to permanently disfigure my arm. Whoops. Yes I can actually.
Sad to say that dear old Jeff was a talented artist and a lousy swimmer. If he hadn't made his Drake/Curtis/Cobain manouvre then we wouldn't have half the claptrap spouted about him.
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Sad to say that dear old Jeff was a talented artist and a lousy swimmer. If he hadn't made his Drake/Curtis/Cobain manouvre then we wouldn't have half the claptrap spouted about him.
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Elephant
Well, some people just don't like Jeff's music. That's totally fine, to each his own. But your criticisms of him go a bit beyond what is reasonable:
1) If you only feel he had one half decent CD out, it's worth mentioning that during his lifetime he was only able to PUT one CD out that he approved of. The rest is just compilations of what was left behind. While I still feel there is a lot of stuff left over that is of amazing quality, you may not. It's not fair to hold that against him since he wasn't alive to approve the release of any of this stuff. Had he lived, he may have gone on to release more albums you might have found more to your liking, or not. But blaming him for the lack of quality of releases that happened after he died makes no sense.
2) He didn't die because he was a lousy swimmer. On a whim, he decided to go swimming in what was perfectly still water. However at some point he got too far out and when the force of the Mississippi took over, you would be a bad swimmer too against that. Was it intentional? Obviously you think so, but I'm not sure the evidence really points towards that. In any case, no one can say for sure.
3) Lumping musicians together who have intentially or unintentially committed suicide is almost like saying that they all did it with the thought in mind that it would make them big stars. I find that difficult to believe. I'm not convinced either way about whether Drake was intentional, either.
4) If you are saying that the main reason people talk about Jeff is because he died, well you have a right to your own opinion, but I'm speaking as someone who was a pretty big fan before he died. I see no need to glorify him purely because he died, because in my opinion a lot of the music he left behind glorifies him enough.
1) If you only feel he had one half decent CD out, it's worth mentioning that during his lifetime he was only able to PUT one CD out that he approved of. The rest is just compilations of what was left behind. While I still feel there is a lot of stuff left over that is of amazing quality, you may not. It's not fair to hold that against him since he wasn't alive to approve the release of any of this stuff. Had he lived, he may have gone on to release more albums you might have found more to your liking, or not. But blaming him for the lack of quality of releases that happened after he died makes no sense.
2) He didn't die because he was a lousy swimmer. On a whim, he decided to go swimming in what was perfectly still water. However at some point he got too far out and when the force of the Mississippi took over, you would be a bad swimmer too against that. Was it intentional? Obviously you think so, but I'm not sure the evidence really points towards that. In any case, no one can say for sure.
3) Lumping musicians together who have intentially or unintentially committed suicide is almost like saying that they all did it with the thought in mind that it would make them big stars. I find that difficult to believe. I'm not convinced either way about whether Drake was intentional, either.
4) If you are saying that the main reason people talk about Jeff is because he died, well you have a right to your own opinion, but I'm speaking as someone who was a pretty big fan before he died. I see no need to glorify him purely because he died, because in my opinion a lot of the music he left behind glorifies him enough.
Elephant
The reason I get into "There's No Home For You Here" so much is to do with those breaks where they go "AAAAAAA" and it's like they're saying "okay we're an American band, but we're recording this in London and just for a second, we're going to pretend to be the Beatles"
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Yeah it's the best thing since sliced bread, alright. I'm just hoping Sloth will forgive me for being a skeptical slow poke. I honestly couldn't stand the Stripes when I heard them in the past.
It makes me a little sad, though when this happens because you know you could go down to the record/CD shop and buy say, 500 new things and still not come up with anything as good. Seems to me 10, 20 years ago, the pickings weren't quite so slim.
It makes me a little sad, though when this happens because you know you could go down to the record/CD shop and buy say, 500 new things and still not come up with anything as good. Seems to me 10, 20 years ago, the pickings weren't quite so slim.
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Tommy Martyn
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Mark,
it is refreshing to see such passion and enthusiasm for an artist. It speaks well of you but will be of no help in your losing battle with those twin demons,logic and reality. Not since I spent a summer teaching GED equivalency classes to adults, have I encountered such horrendous reading comprehension skills.
Where to begin? How about responding to the text? As opposed to some imagined inferrence. Case in point: you begin with, "But your criticisms of him go beyond what is reasonable." Now go back and read the text and tell me which part of, and I quote, "Good looking," "Great voice," "Talented artist," and "Half decent CD," is a criticism. Now in clear sentences tell me why they are not reasonable.
Now it is true that I called him a lousy swimmer. Flippant,unkind and no doubt rude. Yet, I feel that pop stars who drown are not likely to be complimented on their swimming ability.
Let's get back to the immaginary stuff. Once again I quote, "But blaming him for the lack of quality of releases that happened after he died makes no sense." Back to the text again. Where is this blame that I am supposed to be hurling? Aside from that, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to hold Mr Buckley to account for the quality of the songs he both wrote and performed. Indeed it seems to be only thing that would make sense. Unless, of course, he had been inhabited by another dead pop star during the recording. (Sorry, I couldn't let that Pass)
Next we turn to my favourite bit. Where you bizzarely accuse me of positing the theory that, a bunch of unrelated pop stars met untimely ends by their own hands to increase their fame. I love your quote, "I find that difficult to believe." So do I my friend. So do I. Again we return to the text. Where did I mention suicide? Answer....nowhere. Curtis,Cobain,Drake and Buckley all died before their time leaving some great work behind. It is my opinion that the manner of their deaths have influenced considerably how their art and their personas are interpreted. I never said they topped themselves to achieve an ironic immortality. I am bemused that you saw it this way.
The point I was making stemmed from the fact that "Jeff Buckley" was a tattoo. In my opinion not worthy of permanently disfiguring an arm. I am willing to argue that the fact individuals are willing to do this, stems from the construction of "Jeff Buckley" as a persona as much as it does his work. As a case in point let's take Van Morrison. More talented then Buckley as both singer and songwriter and approaching sainthood in his native Ireland. Why is it that you are not likely to find some girl with his name tatooed on her arm? Something to do with his being bald and fat and alive perhaps?
The halo effect of a young death is nothing new nor merely confined to pop. From John F Kennedy to James Dean it's everywhere. For a hilarious but penetrating take on this try to track down the essays of Peter York. (Style Wars. Modern Times.)
it is refreshing to see such passion and enthusiasm for an artist. It speaks well of you but will be of no help in your losing battle with those twin demons,logic and reality. Not since I spent a summer teaching GED equivalency classes to adults, have I encountered such horrendous reading comprehension skills.
Where to begin? How about responding to the text? As opposed to some imagined inferrence. Case in point: you begin with, "But your criticisms of him go beyond what is reasonable." Now go back and read the text and tell me which part of, and I quote, "Good looking," "Great voice," "Talented artist," and "Half decent CD," is a criticism. Now in clear sentences tell me why they are not reasonable.
Now it is true that I called him a lousy swimmer. Flippant,unkind and no doubt rude. Yet, I feel that pop stars who drown are not likely to be complimented on their swimming ability.
Let's get back to the immaginary stuff. Once again I quote, "But blaming him for the lack of quality of releases that happened after he died makes no sense." Back to the text again. Where is this blame that I am supposed to be hurling? Aside from that, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to hold Mr Buckley to account for the quality of the songs he both wrote and performed. Indeed it seems to be only thing that would make sense. Unless, of course, he had been inhabited by another dead pop star during the recording. (Sorry, I couldn't let that Pass)
Next we turn to my favourite bit. Where you bizzarely accuse me of positing the theory that, a bunch of unrelated pop stars met untimely ends by their own hands to increase their fame. I love your quote, "I find that difficult to believe." So do I my friend. So do I. Again we return to the text. Where did I mention suicide? Answer....nowhere. Curtis,Cobain,Drake and Buckley all died before their time leaving some great work behind. It is my opinion that the manner of their deaths have influenced considerably how their art and their personas are interpreted. I never said they topped themselves to achieve an ironic immortality. I am bemused that you saw it this way.
The point I was making stemmed from the fact that "Jeff Buckley" was a tattoo. In my opinion not worthy of permanently disfiguring an arm. I am willing to argue that the fact individuals are willing to do this, stems from the construction of "Jeff Buckley" as a persona as much as it does his work. As a case in point let's take Van Morrison. More talented then Buckley as both singer and songwriter and approaching sainthood in his native Ireland. Why is it that you are not likely to find some girl with his name tatooed on her arm? Something to do with his being bald and fat and alive perhaps?
The halo effect of a young death is nothing new nor merely confined to pop. From John F Kennedy to James Dean it's everywhere. For a hilarious but penetrating take on this try to track down the essays of Peter York. (Style Wars. Modern Times.)
Elephant
Tommy what is your email address? Thanks.
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mccutcheon
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I really liked that Van Morrison bit, made me laugh. I'm only just getting into him, though Them's version of It's all over now baby Blue is fantastic. I read that Shane MacGowen spent his early years pissed (of course) and on acid would listen to nothing else except Astral Weeks.
Elephant
You can drink forever on acid. That is the best thing about it.
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mccutcheon
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Tommy I enjoy your thought out rants, you are very articulate, so tell me what is your take on blokes like Buckley and Drake who find an audience posthumously. It doesn't always work that way for only pop stars, many writers are never recognized until after they are gone. Is it that it's too good for people to get while it's going on? And it's also not only when they die, if you look at the Trainspotting soundtrack; that opened up a whole new audience to Iggy Pop, who then went on to sell more albums than he had ever before. Even Underworld re-released that ‘Lager Lager Lager' anthem only a year after it came out. And then there is the Velvet Underground who have sold more records every decade they get away from the 60's- like by a hundred percent jump every tens years. Is it bad taste or are these artists 'ahead of their time?' Just asking so maybe I can make some money while I'm still alive.
Elephant
theres lots of dirt!
Elephant
I truly find your articulate nature refreshing, Tom, and I'm glad you were willing to spell out your opinions in larger detail. I hope we hear more from you in the future.
However, in the very first paragraph it is you yourself who have lost the battle with logic. Anyone who knows anything about presenting a sound logical argument knows that personal attacks and insults don't make a logical argument stronger, they in fact diminish the writer's credibility. If a person feels they have a sound logical argument to present, they have no need to resort to insulting their audience, especially in their opening paragraph!
I think things are much more interesting when debates take place using logic alone, without it becoming unnecessarily personal. I'm disappointed to see that at least so far, you wouldn't agree.
However, in the very first paragraph it is you yourself who have lost the battle with logic. Anyone who knows anything about presenting a sound logical argument knows that personal attacks and insults don't make a logical argument stronger, they in fact diminish the writer's credibility. If a person feels they have a sound logical argument to present, they have no need to resort to insulting their audience, especially in their opening paragraph!
I think things are much more interesting when debates take place using logic alone, without it becoming unnecessarily personal. I'm disappointed to see that at least so far, you wouldn't agree.
